1 Timothy 4:10 ''...Who is the Savior of All men, Especially of Believers.'' It's not what the unversalists think it is. (incarnation, abominations)
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sciotamics, just the fact that you said what you did above shows me you have not done an exhaustive research on ransom or you would not have written what you wrote.
The term "ransom" does not have the meaning "we are slaves" though sometimes slaves are ransomed.
Neither does ransom mean "a price paid for sin."
Neither does ransom mean "a price paid for the sins of a slave."
Please, quit taking stabs in the dark and just research out ransom in the old Testament.
That is speaking of the believer...another verse that indicates that Salvation is by Faith and not by works...
The reckoning to righteousness you refer to is through faith. However, this is not the sinners justification before God. Justification is a judicial proclamation on the merits of Christ's work alone, at the cross.
[quote=Jremy;12827725]Circular reasoning, my friend. You first have to show that it "obviously" states this before accusing me of not letting it state it.
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Your exegesis to me = vain wisdom.
I'm sorry that you are neither interested in, nor appreciate the value of, sound interpretation of scripture. How in the world can you fully understand how a word is meant without looking at the whole context and the original language? Exegesis = vain wisdom? Making such a statement shows only how little you appreciate what is involved in interpreting a text, particularly complex ones. Take on yourself the task, for example, of examining Romans 5 in its entirety, verse by verse, using the original language.
That, of course, would take a lot of work. It's far, far easier to proof-text and say, "See! The verse says "all," so the case is closed."
LOL...that last line made me chuckle...I often run into those kinds...and they veiw me as unlearned and ignorant...oh, well...
All men in reference to those He foreknew, and to come to the Full Knowledge...Almost the whole world has knowledge of the Truth...but it is not just knowledge but the adjective FULL is added...
Yes my friend.......The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork! God is imputed into everything!
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done [this].
All men in reference to those He foreknew, and to come to the Full Knowledge...Almost the whole world has knowledge of the Truth...but it is not just knowledge but the adjective FULL is added...
Actually no one has knowledge (spiritual knowledge) of the truth unless born of the Spirit:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
Think back when you were without Christ, my friend. Before God brought you to life. It was complete darkness. There was no truth to be found within us. Do you remember that?
1 Tim. 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
Does this verse prove that God will save all people?
No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved."
The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" - 1 Cor. 7:36, or "desire" - Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:16. God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved.
But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out?
Yes and no.
God wants that people not sin. Do they sin?
Yes.
Is God's will accomplished in this?
No.
Is God in control?
Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out.
They will be judged for their sins, if not justified by faith in Christ, and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live."
Will they perish?
Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" - John 3:36.
The partition that was raised, was leveled by Christ, and Paul brought that very message to the Gentiles, allowing "all" men to come to the knowledge epignōsis of the truth. The precise and correct knowledge was then made available to the Gentile world, so that they too, might become saved.
God is glorified by both his judgment on the wicked as well as the glorification of the saved:
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (Romans 9)
God is willing to shew his wrath in order to make his power known ... What power? The power to change the wicked. Just as he shewed his wrath on Nebuchadnezzar which ended up causing Nebuchadnezzar to know the power of God and which caused him to repent. But God endures the vessels of wrath with much longsuffering in order to make the riches of his glory known. What are the richess of Gods glory? The glory of god ultimately is to be the savior of the world. That is why he endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath. So when the lord Judges the vessels of wrath and brings them about to salvation we will know his true glory ... as it is written ...
Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess(exomologeō - to confess, to profess, acknowledge openly and joyfully, to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to, to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It is to the glory of God that everyone confesses joyously and willingly that Christ is their lord.
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A note about v. 23, boldfaced above: It says, "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy,..." What was it that he did to bring this about? It's described in the previous verse: He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction."
Indeed, as i explained above ...
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Even the wicked can glorify God.
Agreed, just as God hardened pharaohs heart, and made him sin against the command of God to set the people of Israel free, so that he might show his own power ...
Exd 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
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What you are doing, sadly, is claiming the falsehood of a doctrine based on your own system of thought. You personally believe that eternal punishment would not glorify God, and so you reject the doctrine of eternal punishment on that basis. For you, it is personal system of theology first, then the Word of God. It should be the other way around. Your system of theology should be derived from Scripture and judged by Scripture. That is why all such rhetoric used by UR adherents just doesn't work. It's just another way of saying, "This is how I think God must be, so it must be so."
No sir, that is wrong. I have been a student of the word for thirty years ... My father was a minister and brought me up in the fundamentalist church. I believed the way you do now, until the spirit called me out of the false gospel of ET. The doctrine of UR is not based on my opinion, and i certainly didnt come up with it. The doctrine of UR was the prevailing doctine of the early church during the first 500 years CE ... It was taught in 4 of the 6 theological seminaries of the early church. As a matter of fact i only came to understand the doctrine after years of struggling with the teaching of ET and praying continuously to God to help me understand the reason and purpose for his eternally tormenting most of his creation. After many months of prayer God lead me to the works of Andrew Jukes ... And i knew right away it was of the true spirit of the gospel though i doubted it because of the programming i had been indoctrinated with all my life. When i first came across this teaching i tested it every inch by scripture trying to disprove it because it all seemed to good to be true, only to come to the point that i realized it was true.
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No doubt you'll say that you do, indeed, derive your system of theology from Scripture. But what I've seen on this board is a lot of proof-texting, stringing together verses taken out of their context, thus creating the appearance that the Bible says this or that but lacking thoroughness and depth. The references to Romans 5 are a perfect example of this. Why does Paul say in Rom. 5:18,
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
yet in the very next verse he doesn't say "all" any more but uses the phrase "the many":
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
That is what i see when i read eternal torment and annihilation arguments. But i know the ET argument as well if not better than most ET'ers ... So i understand their thinking and reasoning. And i realize you are not able to understand ours ...I dont expect you to believe in UR, as i believe God has purposely hardened the hearts of most Christians just as he hardened the heart of pharaoh, in order to one day make the true power of his saving grace known to all people, when he saves all even though the christian church taught that he would not for 1400 years. However, i am convinced one day you will understand, one way or another.
The many is the same as all ... He is saying the same thing in a different way ... This is called being thorough. How many of the many are dying because of Adams sin? All of them ... How many of the many will be made alive in Christ? All of them ... That is why it goes on to say that Grace will much more abound where ever sin did once abound(Rom 5:20). If what you believe is true, and more die because of Adams sin then will be made alive because of Christs work on the cross, then it could not be said that Grace much more abounds. In fact if sin causes one person to be lost forever then sin abounds more than grace ... But you simply cannot see this can you?
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I'm not taking one side or another when I ask this. I am just pointing it out to show that the passage is not as clear-cut as to say, "Look, verse 18 says "all," so it must mean "all." Case closed." Neither side of this debate can take just one verse and make it oppose the other. That accomplishes nothing, since the other side can simply do the reverse. Then all you end up with is an incessant back-and-forth series;
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
To answer the question requires a thorough, verse-by-verse examination of the passage, tracing Paul's line of reasoning and thought from the beginning of the chapter all the way through to the end.
That goes for 1 Corinthians 3 and other passages that have been commonly brought up in this discussion.
I agree, and you should have continued to quote Rom 5:20 and you would see that if what Paul says about grace abounding much more than sin, then it is impossible for even one person to be lost forever because of sin.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-09-2010 at 10:28 PM..
God who is love wants all people saved.
God who is all powerful wants all people saved.
God who is all knowing wants all people saved.
God who is unstopable wants all people saved.
God who 'so' loves the world wants all people saved.
God who knows the start from the finish wants all people saved.
God who can do 'anything' wants all people saved.
God who loves His enemies wants all people saved.
God who has every human beings hair on their head accounted for wants all people saved.
God who made humans in His own image wants all people saved.
God who is a loving Father, wants all people saved.
God who created us (His children) wants all people saved.
God who is love wants all people saved.
God who is all powerful wants all people saved.
God who is all knowing wants all people saved.
God who is unstopable wants all people saved.
God who 'so' loves the world wants all people saved.
God who knows the start from the finish wants all people saved.
God who can do 'anything' wants all people saved.
God who loves His enemies wants all people saved.
God who has every human beings hair on their head accounted for wants all people saved.
God who made humans in His own image wants all people saved.
God who is a loving Father, wants all people saved.
God who created us (His children) wants all people saved.
God's will be done.
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