Is Aionios really a "limited duration"?

[svenM]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

But it is true that if the punishment is not eternal then neither is the life.
The punishment of those nations that mistreated Christ's brethren is not eternal.
The life the NATIONS that treated Christ's brethren properly is not eternal.

Both the punishment and the life those NATIONS enjoy is eonian which is pertaining to the eon.

and even if 'eonian' meant "eternal", would "eternal" not need to mean endless, things that are temporal belong to time, but do not last through all time, a human life e.g. is temporal, but it last only for a short part of time, not through all time, in like manner might things be eternal, that is, they belong to eternity, just as God's jugment might belong to eternity, for God alone is eternal; and eternity the life and sphere of God; yet they need not by necessity last through all eternity but mereley take place in eternity, outside time and outside the realm of the material universe.

And still, everlasting correction would be quite different than everlasting punishment, it might be the result of correction that is everlasting, not the process of correction, in the same manner it would be possible to understand everlasting punishment as annihilation.

The adjective "aionios" always means "everlasting" or "perpetual."

I would agree to render aionios with perpetual, I do however understand perpetual not to denote infinity.

this would result in the following translation of Matthew 25:46

Then they will go away to perpetual chastisement, but the righteous to perpetual life.

chastisement and life are two completely distinct subjects, only because both are called "perpetual" it does not follow why they should have the same duration, I will give an example:

He gave him a perpetual lesson about the perpetual course of the sun.

A "perpetual lesson" is a matter of hours, yet the course of the sun is measured in millenia, "lesson" and "sun" are equally distinct subjects than "chastisement" and "life"; though both the lesson and the course of the sun are called perpetual, they differ in their duration very much.

Likewise perpetual chastisement could be a matter of years or generations, while perpetual life may find no end evermore.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Eusebius
But it is true that if the punishment is not eternal then neither is the life.
The punishment of those nations that mistreated Christ's brethren is not eternal.
The life the NATIONS that treated Christ's brethren properly is not eternal.

Both the punishment and the life those NATIONS enjoy is eonian which is pertaining to the eon.

Originally Posted by svenM

and even if 'eonian' meant "eternal", would "eternal" not need to mean endless, things that are temporal belong to time, but do not last through all time, a human life e.g. is temporal, but it last only for a short part of time, not through all time, in like manner might things be eternal, that is, they belong to eternity, just as God's jugment might belong to eternity, for God alone is eternal; and eternity the life and sphere of God; yet they need not by necessity last through all eternity but mereley take place in eternity, outside time and outside the realm of the material universe.

You are getting a little too philosophical for me sven. For aionion to mean "temporal" and also mean "eternal" would be a contradiction in terms.

No judgments are outside of time. They all occur withing the confines of the eons. Eons mark out time. Eonian is that which is pertaining to the eons. No eons are eternal. No eons are outside of time. The Bible says all the eons end. Therefore that which is eonian is that which pertains to the eons and therefore it is impossible for eonian to be eternal since it never pertains to any eon which is eternal.

The Bible never says that when we put on immortality (non-dying life) that it is outside the material universe. In fact, when we do put on immortality which is as close as we can come to "eternal life" is when we are put to work withing the material universe to take part in the administration to head up all in the Christ both that in the heavens and that on the earth (Eph.1:9).

And still, everlasting correction would be quite different than everlasting punishment, it might be the result of correction that is everlasting, not the process of correction, in the same manner it would be possible to understand everlasting punishment as annihilation.

That is just too philosophical for me. Either it is eonian or it isn't. If it is eonian, and it is, then it is pertaining to the eons.

Peace.

[svenM]

You are getting a little too philosophical for me sven. For aionion to mean "temporal" and also mean "eternal" would be a contradiction in terms.

eternity is a solely philosophical construct, the Greek philosophers seem to have coined it, as the adherents of everlasting torment chose them as their authority to claim aión means eternity, one should also use "eternal" in its philosophical sense which some Greek philosophers gave them, and eternity is not simply endlessness but a realm outside time; but basically I agree with you.

I'm writing as kind of essay on this subject, I might share here my result thus far:

Eternity, in the sense of the antithesis of time, infinity without beginning and end, an ever changeless sphere outside of time and the material world, is a solely philosophical concept without biblical reference; there are different opinions what eternity actually is, which further supports my point of view. It is a solely philosophical term and therefore ambiguous. To build a doctrine as eternal punishment on such an ambiguous term demands an authoritative definition what eternity is and what eternal precisely means, the bible does not provide such definition, but warns of the vain philosophy of men:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:8, KJV

The biblical terms in question are the Hebrew noun olam which has no adjective and the Greek noun aiõn and its adjective aiõnios, I will render both olam and aiõn in the anglicized version æon;and aiõnios as æonian.

The first occurrences of olam in the bible:

Genesis 3:22, KJV

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever (lit. for æon).

Genesis 6:3.4, KJV

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always (lit. for æon) strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old (lit. from æon), men of renown.

Genesis 9:12, KJV

And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual (lit. of æon) generations.

Genesis 9:16, KJV

And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting (lit. of æon) covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Genesis 13:15, KJV

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever (lit. for æon).

Genesis 17:7.8, KJV

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting (lit. of æon) covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting (lit. of æon) possession; and I will be their God.

Genesis 21:33, KJV

And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting (lit. of æon) God.

Genesis 49:26, KJV

The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting (lit. of æon) hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

From the use of olam in Gen. 21:33 is argued it means eternal because it is applied to God, but this arguments holds no water; in Gen. 6:4 it is applied to a past perpetuity that can be no longer then from the time of Noah back to the creation of the world, which was surely no eternity. In Gen. 9:12 it is properly rendered perpetual, for everlasting generations would demand everlasting procreation which is not scriptural. The everlasting covenant (17:7) belongs to their generations, so we have no reason to understand this covenant to be eternal. The land of Canaan (17:8) will no longer exist after the dissolution of the present world (2Peter 3:10), it therefore cannot be actually everlasting in the sense of endless; neither the everlasting hills (49:26).

We have seen that the word olam cannot intrinsically denote eternity, the KJV translates it as for ever, always, of old, perpetual, everlasting in the shown occurrences. Though the things to which this term is applied are neither everlasting nor eternal. Both God and the hills are denoted with the very same word, but while the God of æon has neither beginning nor end, the hills of æon have both beginning and end.

Aiõn, the Greek equivalent of olam

The Hebrew bible has been translated into Greek about 250 years before Christ, this translation is called Septuagint; the word that was chosen to render olam was aiõn.

In Genesis 3:22 and 6:3 we find the rendering eis ton aiõna (lit. into the æon), in Gen. 6:4 ap aiõnos (lit. from æon), to understand this as from eternity would be ridiculous. In Gen. 13:15 it is rendered eõs tou aiõnos (lit. unto the æon) which implies a finite period; in 9:12; 9:16; 17:7.8, 21:33; 49:26 the adjective aiõnios (æonian) is used,

Adherents of eternal punishment agree that aiõn can mean a finite period of time, in these cases the KJV commonly translates world in the New Testament; but insist that it can and must also mean eternity, especially in the form eis ton aiõna, which I will investigate later.

The adjective aiõnios allegedly has only but one meaning – eternal

In the examined verses we find:

· æonian generations (geneas aiõnious) in Gen. 9:12
· æonian covenant in Gen. 9:16 and 17:7
· æonian possession in Gen. 17:8
· æonian God in Gen. 21:33
· æonian hills (thinõn aiõniõn) in Gen. 49:26

If we judge only from this occurrences aiõnios may have these meanings:

· without beginning and end, i.e. eternal, this applies only to God
· with beginning but without end, i.e. everlasting, this might apply to God’s covenant
· With beginning and end, merely age lasting, or perpetual, continuous, enduring, this applies to the generations, the hills and the possession of Canaan. I should add in this context that the translators of the Septuagint knew according to Psalm 102:25.26 that these hills and the possession of Canaan can’t be everlasting when they chose the term aiõnios to render olam

The last supposed meaning already challenges the traditionalists’ position. It is now necessary to consider the claims from the traditionalist theologians what aiõnios is supposed to mean and the authorities they claim (i.e. Plato) to judge in this matter.


Strong gives 3 definitions (Strong number 166):

• without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
• without beginning
• without end, never to cease, everlasting

In fact he gives only two definitions, a philosophical eternity without beginning and end, changeless and ever the same; and that which has a beginning in time but endures endlessly.


I wonder how that applies to the hills of Genesis 49:26; but I will proof this definition wrong from the inspired writings.

Romans 16:25.26, Green’s Literal Translation

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the proclaiming of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal times (Gr. chronois aiõniois), but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the everlasting God (Gr. aiõniou theou), made known for obedience of faith to all the nations.

It seems J.P. Green was an honest translator, but eternal times is a contradiction in terms as hot ice would be, but more of importance, these eternal times had an end. Again the finite times are likewise called eternal as God, while I do not question God’s eternity I question if that is expressed by the term aiõnios and if it even need to be expressed at all; and if not the apostle Paul wanted to tell us something different, when He called the infinite God aiõnios, just as he called the finite times also aiõnios.

Titus 1:2, Green’s Literal Translation

…on hope of eternal life (Gr. zõês aiõniou) which the God who does not lie promised before the eternal times (Gr. pro chronõn aiõniõn) …

Before eternal times (also 2 Timothy 1:9), I see no need to say anything further to show that Strong’s definition is false, I think it is fair to say that Strong has his definition of aiõnios not from the bible but rather from Plato and other heathen philosophers.

I could basically stop here; to prove that aiõnios is used in the sense of a finite perpetuity in the New Testament and may have two entirely different meanings in even one and the same sentence is more than enough to defend the restorationist’s view, due to this fact eternal punishment cannot be proven from the bible.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by svenM

and even if 'eonian' meant "eternal", would "eternal" not need to mean endless, things that are temporal belong to time, but do not last through all time, a human life e.g. is temporal, but it last only for a short part of time, not through all time, in like manner might things be eternal, that is, they belong to eternity, just as God's jugment might belong to eternity, for God alone is eternal; and eternity the life and sphere of God; yet they need not by necessity last through all eternity but mereley take place in eternity, outside time and outside the realm of the material universe.

And still, everlasting correction would be quite different than everlasting punishment, it might be the result of correction that is everlasting, not the process of correction, in the same manner it would be possible to understand everlasting punishment as annihilation.



I would agree to render aionios with perpetual, I do however understand perpetual not to denote infinity.

this would result in the following translation of Matthew 25:46

Then they will go away to perpetual chastisement, but the righteous to perpetual life.

chastisement and life are two completely distinct subjects, only because both are called "perpetual" it does not follow why they should have the same duration, I will give an example:

He gave him a perpetual lesson about the perpetual course of the sun.

A "perpetual lesson" is a matter of hours, yet the course of the sun is measured in millenia, "lesson" and "sun" are equally distinct subjects than "chastisement" and "life"; though both the lesson and the course of the sun are called perpetual, they differ in their duration very much.

Likewise perpetual chastisement could be a matter of years or generations, while perpetual life may find no end evermore.

But then how do you deal with 2Th 1:9?

2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction(aiōnios olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

But it is true that if the punishment is not eternal then neither is the life.

All Christians, bear witness to this man and the statement he has made here.

[Flaminghedge]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Nice try...but you are obviously a novice at this aren't you?

Not at all. Besides you assumed I was arguing that the law has been destroyed, which I wasn't. Therefore your post was completely pointless and rather stupid as it seems you can't even argue without insulting the person you are arguing with.

[trettep]

Saw this today and wanted to share concerning aionios:

Psa 77:5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.

Would you believe that in the LXX that the word aionios is in that verse? - if so how can anyone claim that aionios implicitly means eternal?