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Old 02-10-2010, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Many universalist get it wrong when it comes to Aionios. They try to tell you that it means a limited duration. Take this verse for example:

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

The word "eternal" there is from the Greek Aionios which many of them claim means a "limited duration". But does anyone really believe that these were called into God's limited duration glory?

How about this one:

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Does anyone believe that the things not seens are limited in duration?
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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And again here:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Is the inheritance only for a limited duration?
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Trettep,

I agree with your assertion, however my paradigm is Preterist, so AIONIOS when applied in the LXX and New Testament in regards to the "present/this Age" is defined by the noun it attaches. When applied to Jesus, God and the saints ruling the kingdom, it is timeless, and thus extends into the "age to come" which I believe began in 70 AD. What happens now, for the sinner outside of Christ, is the second death, and "if" that death involves torment of some sort, AIONIOS isn't in the text post Parousia/New Heavens and Earth, and in Rev 21:8, there is no mention of Age Limitation/AIONIOS in the second death. Whether one believes this torment in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone in regards to the New Heavens and Earth is future of past, there is no term AIONIOS in the verse, or anywhere near it. Does this imply eternity? Does it not imply eternity? It says neither, but only that they burn, and the implication of the second death is spiritual, the anti-type of spiritual life, in that their body has already gone to dust in death, and its second demise is posit to that of the spirit.

So yes, IMO, the second death involves torment, it involves the Lake Of Fire and Brimstone, where the Angels and Satan himself are, and this justice, although hard to fathom coming from a loving God, our God has many attributes that He Himself spoke of to His holy scribes and prophets, which includes things that seem unable for many of us to swallow, His nature is outside of our understanding, and it is His love for us that He came, but it is His wrath for us that defy him, and whether or not one wants to accept that or not, is their prerogative, but it doesn't change the nature of God, whatever opinion we have of Him. He is God. Outside of Time and Space, the creator of not only a beautiful universe, but a very violent one at that if we aren't careful in our walk in it.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Many universalist get it wrong when it comes to Aionios. They try to tell you that it means a limited duration. Take this verse for example:

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
It is not saying his glory is limited, it is saying it pertains to the eons. Also the glory is by Christ Jesus, it is qualified and therefore isn't simply his glory, but his glory by Christ Jesus which most definitely is temporary as stated in other verses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
How about this one:

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
This verse is not contrasting temporary and eternal, but rather it is contrasting seen and unseen, therefore it does not have to mean eternal as they are not being contrasted. Also, why do you believe that they will be unseen forever? It makes more sense when it says eonian.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:38 AM
 
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aion - aionios part A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp8h7yVXDL0

aion - aionios part b

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiN_XghQilo
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Trettep,

I agree with your assertion, however my paradigm is Preterist, so AIONIOS when applied in the LXX and New Testament in regards to the "present/this Age" is defined by the noun it attaches. ...
That makes no sense. You ascribing two different meanings to the word. To say it means limited duration in one breath and then timelessness in another breath. Aionios has the same meaning throughout ALL the scriptures. Aionios is an ajective but what your saying is that the noun it applies to is becoming the adjective in describing aionios. Think about that.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaminghedge View Post
It is not saying his glory is limited, it is saying it pertains to the eons. Also the glory is by Christ Jesus, it is qualified and therefore isn't simply his glory, but his glory by Christ Jesus which most definitely is temporary as stated in other verses.
Gods Glory existed before the ages. After all Hebrews shows that all AGES were created therefore, if all ages are created then at some point there was no age.


Quote:
This verse is not contrasting temporary and eternal, but rather it is contrasting seen and unseen, therefore it does not have to mean eternal as they are not being contrasted. Also, why do you believe that they will be unseen forever? It makes more sense when it says eonian.
Your making excuses. I never said that aionios means forever.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You just posting someone else that is saying it means "limited duration". I just posted scriptures that refute that.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Many universalist get it wrong when it comes to Aionios. They try to tell you that it means a limited duration. Take this verse for example:

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

The word "eternal" there is from the Greek Aionios which many of them claim means a "limited duration". But does anyone really believe that these were called into God's limited duration glory?

How about this one:

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Does anyone believe that the things not seens are limited in duration?
aionios does not denote "endlessness", as for 2Co 4:18, the word translated "temporal" is proskairos, it is not related to time (chronos) as opposite to that which is eternal (aidios), but rather means a season; temporal in the sense of pertaining to time (as opposed to pertaining to eternity) is chronikos

Quote:
2. Corinthians 4:18

μὴ σκοπούντων ἡμῶν τὰ βλεπόμενα ἀλλὰ τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα• τὰ γὰρ βλεπόμενα πρόσκαιρα, τὰ δὲ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια.

mÍ skopountōn Ímōn ta blepomena alla ta mÍ blepomena ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de mÍ blepomena aiōnia

So we don't spend all our time looking at what we can see. Instead, we look at what we can't see. What can be seen lasts only a short time. But what can't be seen will last forever. (NIRV)

The word proskairos also occurs in Matthew 13:21, Mark 4:17, and Hebrews 11:25

I'll show these verses now in several translations, before I turn to 2 Corinthians 4:18 in detail:

Matthew 13:21

"But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time (Gr. proskairos). When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away." (New International Version)

"Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." (King James Version)

Mark 4:17

"But they have no roots. So they last only a short time (Gr. proskairos). They quickly fall away from the faith when trouble or suffering comes because of the message." (NIRV)

Hebrews 11:25

"Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season (Gr. proskairos);…" (King James Version)

"He chose to be ill-treated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time." (New International Version)

In all these occurrences proskairos rather seems to mean a short time, a season or a while.

An online dictionary, it seems to be the Liddell Scott; gives the following meaning for proskairos: for a season, temporary

"season" is defined in an English dictionary: A period of time not very long; a while; a time.

John Nelson Darby in defence of everlasting torment wrote, "But this does not alter the meaning of the word: aionios is properly the opposite to proskairos."

But what is the opposite of "a period of time not very long"? Of course "eternity" would be the opposite of such a period, but also one or several long ages, or even a single century would be the full contrast to a short season, while the contrast of "eternity" is time and not a season.

If Paul would have contrasted time with eternity I think he would have written,

"For the things which are seen are 'chronikos' (temporary/temporal, in the sense of pertaining to time);
but the things which are not seen are eternal (pertaining to eternity, most probably aidios, aidiotÍtos in Geek)."

But Paul did not use chronikos, the adjective of chronos, time, which I think he would have done, if he had intended to contrast time with eternity here, but he used proskairos, which is not related to time (chronos) itself, but rather means a season as shown. I think this verse proofs in no way that aiűnios should be understood as "endless duration", because it does simply not say so. It might be the perfect definition of Hebrew olam which means something like "hidden time" as far as I know:

Things that are seen last only for a (short present) period (Gr. proskairos),
but things (yet future), not seen (yet and with an unavowed end), are lasting for [a] (long future) age[s] (Gr. aiűnios).

This might be a possible interpretation without any relation to "timeless eternity" or "endlessness" in a Platonic sense.
We have dealed with this topic e.g. here:

The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment (LONG)
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
aionios does not denote "endlessness", as for 2Co 4:18, the word translated "temporal" is proskairos, it is not related to time (chronos) as opposite to that which is eternal (aidios), but rather means a season; temporal in the sense of pertaining to time (as opposed to pertaining to eternity) is chronikos



We have dealed with this topic e.g. here:

The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment (LONG)
No, it doesn't refer to temporary either. It doesn't refer to endlessness either. You guys are NOT understanding it. Your appealing to other sources. STUDY IT!!! Stop going to extra sources that agree with your faith and STUDY it from God's Word.
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