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Figured it out? Not in the least. It shows how uneducated the both of you really are when it comes to analyzing the ancient language. Let me help the novice Universalists out. In the Old Testament the word chiefly rendered "to will" is 'abhah, "to breathe after," "to long for." With the exception of Job 39:9; Isa 1:19, it is accompanied by a negation, and is used of both man and God. Several other words are employed, but only sparsely. "Will" as noun is the translation chiefly of ratson, "good-will," "willfulness" (Gen 49:6), with emphasis on the voluntariness of action (Lev 1:3; 19:5; 22:19,29, etc.); also of nephesh, and a few other words.
I thought you told us to "figure it out" and we did... LOL
Guess you didn't like that much.. now we are uneducated.
In the OT we see that God has a plan for salvation... His plan is what? To redeem the lost. What I said on the other thread stands here as well. You seem to think that only the saved deserve to be saved when clearly it is the ungodly, the sinner, the lost.. that was the plan to save.. who else need saving? So when you try to explain God's will/desire/passion to me all I hear are excuses for why God won't or can't save all the sinners..etc.
This "will of God" thing you are on is fine and dandy but you have already admitted That God wants/wills/desires to have all saved. Now you want to say that it was a voluntary thing like a nice sentiment rather than an intention.. that makes no sense whether in English or Greek or Hebrew!
In the New Testament "will" is chiefly the translation of thelo and boulomai, the difference between the two being that thelo expresses an active choice or purpose, boulomai, "passive inclination or willingness, or the inward predisposition from which the active choice proceeds" (compare Mk 15:9,12 with 15:15). [/quote]
Yet we see that epi and boulomai means to plot against. epi being against and boulomai to plot as in Acts 9:24.
So even though you SAY it is a passive inclination, it is only passive if you can prove that something thwarted God's DESIRE or WILL for all to be saved. Can you provide a reason that God will not do as he states his passive inclination is to do. What is stopping him? It cannot be humans as we see in Romans 9:16:
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
So if God's will depends on God.. then you tell me where it states he will not get what he desires/wants/.. after all it is he who is giving it in the first place... right?
Quote:
"Will," noun, is thelema. With the exception of a few passages, it is used of the will of God (over all, Mt 18:14; in all things to be done, Mt 6:10; 26:42 parallel, etc.; ordering all things, Eph 1:11, etc.); human will, however, may oppose itself to the will of God (Lk 23:25; Jn 1:13; Rom 7:18; here the capacity to will is distinguished from the power to do, etc.). Boulema is properly counsel or purpose. While it is possible to oppose the will of God, His counsel or purpose cannot be frustrated (Acts 2:23; 4:28; Rom 9:19; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17); it may, however, be resisted for a time (Lk 7:30).
Got that?
I guess I haven't got it yet.. at least not what you are trying so hard to prove.
Matt. 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing [THELEMA] that any of these little ones should be lost.
He is willing and able so he DOES save the lost ones.. right?
Thelei is used here as in 1 Tim 2:
At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants [THELEI] to kill you."
Did Herod kinda want to kill him? Was he actively searching for him or just if he saw him he would kill him?
And just one more:
Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants [THELEI] to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants [THELEI] to harden.
So do you believe that God means that he will have mercy and will harden or that he may not just that he is thinking about it? Pondering whether he really wants to?
All these usages create an intent..
God's intent is to save all men. You say he doesn't. Show me what is stopping him from saving all men.
You haven't shown the forum the term used in 1 Tim 2:4 supports your paradigm. I have shown, through a simple, yet exhaustive exegesis, that the "will" in this particular verse has nothing to do with Divine will and purpose in the salvation of mankind. What it does imply, with great accuracy in its translation, is that it is what He wants and desires, but by no means does it even imply that it will happen. 1 Tim 2:4 cannot be used to support the UR paradigm, in any way shape or form. The purpose of this scripture, is to reveal to the church, that entering into covenant has no boundries but belief in Christ, thus bringing God's creation, born under the spirit of Christ, is applicable to all men, void of racial and social distinctions, but by no means is guaranteed without faith in Christ.
Secondly, as a professed Preterist, applying 1 Tim 2:4 to your PU view, its application is still considered to be a future/prophetic event(s), and with that being said, because of this, you are still gazing through the scripture with futurist eyes. Redemption, in a Preterist paradigm, is complete, only through the profession of faith in Jesus Christ, and that redemption and prophetic application, is for lack of a better term, a done deal. God's creation has been reconciled in Jesus Christ. When one comes into the faith, he is a new Creation, and it is that creation that is made anew. Those outside of that new Creation, are dead.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 02-16-2010 at 10:35 AM..
Reason: typo and sp
God's intent is to save all men. You say he doesn't. Show me what is stopping him from saving all men.
I never said He doesn't, because His intent was already accomplished through Christ. Belief in Him, saves the man. There is nothing stopping Him from saving man, but man's rebellion itself, since we have seen that what He wants and desires can be thwarted by man's refusal of Christ.
Now in terms of thelema, which cannot be thwarted, is Divine and Purpose and Power, an action that is void of rebellion. Just as Christ thelo His flock to be gathered under His wing, they disobeyed and were not, which rightly translates that what God thelo, is often, thwarted by mankind's rebellion.
According to your view here of 1 Tim 2, are we supposed to pray for all men - every single person who has and who ever will exist ie. all mankind ... OR are we supposed to pray for "all men" - ie. only those whom God will save?
Furthermore, if I understand your last posts, you say God intends to save all men, but that He won't really save all men, due to man's rebellion. So in effect man's rebellion frustrates God's intention. Did God intend for man's rebellion to occur?
Why would God intend for something to happen that He knows never will happen? What kind of a weak-willed God is this? OR if you believe God intended for rebellion and the fall to occur, why would God intend for all men to be saved when He also intended for them to rebel, thus knowing His two intentions are completely at odds?
There is nothing stopping Him from saving man, but man's rebellion itself, since we have seen that what He wants and desires can be thwarted by man's refusal of Christ.
How can a dead sinner's rebellion thwart God? Thwarting and rebelling is all dead sinners can do. That is nothing new. However, if dead sinners could thwart God, no one would be saved. No one. Not you, or I, or anyone. Dead sinners did not, and do not, want to be saved. Their natural minds are said to be set against God:
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Rom 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
Furthermore, dead sinners cannot change themselves anymore than an Ethiopian can change the color of his skin, or a leopard it's spots:
13:23 Doth an Ethiopian change his skin? and a leopard his spots? Ye also are able to do good, who are accustomed to do evil.
The word θέλω (to will, or to desire) is used of the Spirit blowing where he wills, bringing men to life. All sinners come to life in this way. By the will of the Spirit:
Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
Another example, the word θέλω is used, speaking of Jesus giving life to the dead:
Joh 5:21 `For, as the Father doth raise the dead, and doth make alive, so also the Son doth make alive whom he willeth;
The next example (the word θέλω is used) shows Jesus cleansing the leper. And guess what, that stubborn leprosy went away...LOL Amazing, considering θέλω can be resisted . Oh wait, I forgot, leprosy is dead, it cannot resist :
Luk 5:13 and having stretched forth his hand, he touched him, having said, `I will; be thou cleansed;' and immediately the leprosy went away from him.
Now, for a moment, let's change courses: Let's consider man's will. The sinner's will (same word θέλω is being used here). The dead sinner, or anything else for that matter, can do nothing, neither will nor run from, to thwart God's kindness:
Rom 9:16 so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
Now, let's change courses once again, and this time with respect to what God wills. What ever God desires (θέλω is also being used here) God does. If God wills kindness, He does kindness, if He wills hardening, He hardens:
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
If God so desired, he could also show wrath, yes indeed, if he so willed. The word θέλω is used here too:
Rom 9:22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
Fortunately for the sinner, the word if was used. But God who is good and loving to sinners, and not like the ET'ers (no offense..LOL) has declared otherwise. God does will kindness and mercy towards sinners, again using the same word θέλω, and for all men to be saved:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
And not only, but empathetically so. God does will!
So how is it that something dead can thwart God? Does God have no power over dead sinners? Of course He does!:
Deu 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
If it is God's desire to give life and to heal, then who, or what, will stop God from doing so?
Deu 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
Quite frankly no one, including the dead sinner himself!
God will have all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Nothing will stop it.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 02-16-2010 at 01:01 PM..
According to your view here of 1 Tim 2, are we supposed to pray for all men - every single person who has and who ever will exist ie. all mankind ... OR are we supposed to pray for "all men" - ie. only those whom God will save?
The scripture answered it. Yes, you are supposed to pray for all men.
I don't follow you here.
Quote:
Furthermore, if I understand your last posts, you say God intends to save all men, but that He won't really save all men, due to man's rebellion. So in effect man's rebellion frustrates God's intention. Did God intend for man's rebellion to occur?
Did not God intend for Adam to not sin? Did not Christ intend for the Jew to be gathered under His wing? What was the result?
Quote:
Why would God intend for something to happen that He knows never will happen? What kind of a weak-willed God is this? OR if you believe God intended for rebellion and the fall to occur, why would God intend for all men to be saved when He also intended for them to rebel, thus knowing His two intentions are completely at odds?
It's called free will. It's called trangression/rebellion. even though God wants you to not sin, you still do. This has nothing to do with God being weak, or ineffective, bith attributes which He is not. It has everyhting to do with man and his fallen state. God wants, desires and intends, but this does not imply that it will become so for mankind? No. This is where the Univeresalist has a difficult time in understanding the relationship between God and Man.
Man has free will. God wants man to surrender. It's called worship.
The scripture answered it. Yes, you are supposed to pray for all men.
I don't follow you here.
I don't follow you either. Let me expand the question:
Is this the same "all men" that God wants to save in 1 Tim 2:4? ie. God wants to save every single individual who has ever existed and who will ever exist? Somehow I doubt it as you have said repeatedly that God doesn't want to save literally all men, but then you have also said God does want to save all men...
Earlier you said "all men" in verse 4 is not really all men, its only specifying gentiles and jews ("all classes or types of men"). Then how should we know if verse 1 is also only "all types of men"? Why not apply this same reasoning to verse 1?
Quote:
Did not God intend for Adam to not sin? Did not Christ intend for the Jew to be gathered under His wing? What was the result?
Why were the Jews disobedient? This is why:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
God had bound the Jews to be disobedient (in fact God has made all creation subject to vanity). Clearly God intended them to be disobedient. Matt 23:17 must be understood in that context. Furthermore Christ "desiring" something as a man is quite a bit different than God flat out desiring something.
God (and even Christ) knew that "No one can come to Christ except the Father enable them" and "All men would be drawn to Christ when He was crucified". So I interpret the "desire" expressed in Matt 23:17 as a type of "condescension"... God is using human emotions to explain something... even though God knew they wouldn't come to Him until He enabled them to. Christ wished them to come, but it was not time yet according to God's plan.
Quote:
It's called free will. It's called trangression/rebellion. even though God wants you to not sin, you still do. This has nothing to do with God being weak, or ineffective, bith attributes which He is not. It has everyhting to do with man and his fallen state. God wants, desires and intends, but this does not imply that it will become so for mankind? No. This is where the Univeresalist has a difficult time in understanding the relationship between God and Man.
Man has free will. God wants man to surrender. It's called worship.
I don't know why you bring up free will. Free will is inconsistent with your own belief system. This is why I don't understand your belief as a whole, it appears completely inconsistent. In another thread you said this:
Quote:
Only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will receive God's mercy, and only those who God has chosen will believe. God's attributes of wrath and justice will be displayed on the non-elect. God does not love those who His wrath abides in, nor will He save "all" men either.
Doesn't sound like you really believe in free will either.
Yet here you say man has free will. Then other times you say Jesus didn't atone for all sins or for all people. What of the "free will" of those people who didn't have their sins atoned for? Where is their free will if they are not even free to choose God? Free will is inherently incompatible with a limited atonement, which you have argued for in the past.
Are you now saying Christ's atonement was for all men (literally all men)?!?
To me it looks like you are backpeddling big time. Or maybe you just switch your story just so you can argue. I don't know. One moment you say God doesn't desire to save all men and therefore Christ didn't atone for the sins of all people. Then the next moment you say man has free will and God desires to save all men... which is it? CAN YOU ANSWER THIS?
You are neglecting the text. How can the Jews thwart what Christ wanted (thelo)?
sciotamicks - The same way you and I, or any current believer for that matter, did so in our prior unbelief. Let's ask ourselves: Did our prior unbelief thwart God's will for us? Of course not! He brought us to life in the Spirit, at His own time and according to His own working!
What God desires θέλω, emerges from His will θέλημα, and is founded in that which He purposes προτίθημι.
What God purposes is also what He wills. In what He wills is also what He desires. And what God desires He also makes known.
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will (θέλημα), according to His good pleasure, that He purposed (προτίθημι) in Himself,
Col 1:27 to whom God did will (θέλω) to make known what is the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations--which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,
What God desires (θέλω) for all, is His will (θέλημα). What God desires (θέλω), namely: that all men be saved, will be made known in it's own time:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will (θέλω) all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--
The word testimony here is testifying to the one time ransom, and to be made known in times:
μαρτύριον
Testimony, witness, proof, the declaration which confirms or makes something known.
The proof of Christ's ransom for all will be made known in it's own times. The word times is plural.
Not one time, but "seasons". When the time is ready. When the time is ready, each sinner will come to life, and be born of the Spirit.
Do you see this?
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 02-16-2010 at 02:40 PM..
You are neglecting the text. How can the Jews thwart what Christ wanted (thelo)?
Christ wanted them to come, yet Christ knew they would not come because the Father had not enabled them to come. Its a form of condescension. This is a type of figure of speech. Its when God/Christ expresses Himself as if He had qualities of a human, even though He is God.
It was not their time to come yet.
If you are saying that God has desires that will not be achieved, you may as well say God doesn't have perfect foreknowledge and is not all-knowing.
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. Oh wait, I forgot, leprosy is dead, it cannot resist 
:
