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The poll is pointless. God IS sovereign . . . BUT He can CHOOSE NOT to exercise it. His WILL is determinate.... . . and it is His WILL that we have Free Will and Dominion over the earth, period! His concern is focused entirely on our SPIRITUAL development . . . NOT WORLDLY or CARNAL.
The poll is pointless. God IS sovereign . . . BUT He can CHOOSE NOT to exercise it. His WILL is determinate.... . . and it is His WILL that we have Free Will and Dominion over the earth, period! His concern is focused entirely on our SPIRITUAL development . . . NOT WORLDLY or CARNAL.
What happened when Jonah preached judgement to the people of Nineveh? They repented and were spared; they held their own future in their hands.
Luke 11
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Matthew 10
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Joshua 24
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Your destiny is completely up to you. You can choose to live by obeying God in everything, or you can walk the paths of sin and go to the torments of hell for eternity. The Nivevites chose to live, and that was a wise decision.
Matthew 16
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Are we to understand sovereign as God is in control/knows the end from the beginning/purposed everything to happen a certain way/has a perfect plan, or that he gave man the ability to go against all of that?
I believe both checkboxes are true.
For example
1. God decided that Jonah would testify to Nineveh.
2. Jonah decided not to.
3. God decided Jonah would be swallowed by a fish
4. The fish decided to swallow Jonah
5. Jonah didn't like his predicament so he decided to repent and obey God
As God had planned from the beginning.
Nowhere in there did Jonah lose his will, ability to consider, or ability to choose. Even the fish had a will and made a choice.
1. God decided that Jonah would testify to Nineveh.
2. Jonah decided not to.
3. God decided Jonah would be swallowed by a fish
4. The fish decided to swallow Jonah
5. Jonah didn't like his predicament so he decided to repent and obey God
As God had planned from the beginning.
Nowhere in there did Jonah lose his will, ability to consider, or ability to choose. Even the fish had a will and made a choice.
Right, that was a little ambiguous wording on my part. The intent for the second would be in spite of God's will
I don't think your poll is stupid Flaminghedge ...
In my opinion people simply dont realize how much subconscious inward influences and invisible outward stimuli control their motivations.
I believe People do have limited choice but regardless, the scriptures are very clear that some are made to honor and some to dishonor ...
Your either in bondage to sin, or Christ liberates you and you become a servant of his will. You cant serve two masters. If your serving yourself your in bondage to sin, if you put others first you have been liberated by God. And even after you have been liberated by Christ you struggle with the carnal nature in the members of your body, serving the law of God in you mind, and the law of sin and within your flesh. That is what it means to love one master and hate the other.
Free will means having no consequences to ones actions that would ultimately effect change in ones own life, and that simply defies nature. Every action as an equal and opposite reaction.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-14-2010 at 12:19 PM..
In my opinion people simply dont realize how much subconscious inward influences and invisible outward stimuli control their motivations.
I believe People do have limited choice but regardless, the scriptures are very clear that some are made to honor and some to dishonor ...
Free will means having no consequences to ones actions that would ultimately effect change in ones own life, and that simply defies nature. Every action as an equal and opposite reaction.
This is incorrect, Ironmaw. This is only recognizing that God has created the world with rules and laws that have consequences if they are violated . . . like the law of gravity or any of His moral laws. These do not CONTROL our Free WIll . . . but they do constrain it to stay within them or accept the consequences. We also have Dominion over the earth by God's will . . . so WE are in charge of what happens down here, period (within the bounds of God's laws). This does NOT encroach on God's sovereignty or diminish God in ANY way since HE WILLS IT TO BE SO! It also accounts for the existence of evil and sin . . . US. Tragedies and other natural disasters are just part of what WE must endure and OVERCOME in our Dominion . . . they are NOT GOD's actiions or punishments or anything else.
Umm, define Sovereign. The only spot in the Word I can find relating to Sovereign is here in 1st Timothy 6:13-16;
I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him {be} honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
For myself Sovereign is absolute dominion. Not just Jesus over all, as He is the King(Sovereign) of kings(sovereigns), but even a ruler over their people, or the man in his house. In our country, the State is sovereign, as well as the people, individually.
So, again I ask,,,define Sovereign in your original post.
Right, that was a little ambiguous wording on my part. The intent for the second would be in spite of God's will
Even then I still check both boxes. God can determine beforehand that Jonah would rebel, then be swallowed by a fish, then repent and testify to Nineveh all the while Jonah is making choices, no different than we do everyday (although inside the fish would be a choice made under extreme duress, but sometimes we make choices under extreme pressure too). There is no conflict between God's sovereignity and the normal everyday acts of willing and choosing.
Could Jonah have chosen to obey God from the get go? He could have had he wanted to but he did not want to. And God foreknew that. Could Jonah have continued to resist God from inside the fish? He could have if he wanted to but he did not want to. Could Jonah have willed himself to want to continue to resist God from inside the fish? No. It is extremely difficult to will yourself to want what you don't want. Much like climbing a wall that you lack the strength to climb.
These do not CONTROL our Free WIll . . . but they do constrain it...
So now we've got free yet constrained wills huh?
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