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That depends on how Christianity is defined. If one accepts that Herr Ratzinger is the Vicar of Christ, special days and seasons may seem important. However, if one believes that Christianity is based on Scripture, one will not only find special days and seasons uncommanded, but actually condemned as 'weak and pitiful'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata
I don't suppose that God is too concerned about ashes- if only people would repent.
My bad, I thought you mentioned something about Scripture. I was just trying to provide some backing for the use of ashes.
I'm sorry, shibata. You are much more clever than I. I am not following your question. Are you referring to Scripture, ashes, or backing? Or maybe it was a rhetorical question.
Hmm...certainly my interpretation of the following statement is incorrect...
This is what you say...
This is what I hear...
I think where many people take issue with the Catholic Church and its traditions and rituals is when you do them because it's the 'thing' to do or because 'everyone else is doing it' or because the Church says so.
I am sure that if I had not converted to Catholicism 6 years ago I would not have had ashes smudged on my forehead last night. I highly doubt that I would have fasted. And abstaining from meat on Fridays would certainly be taboo. Heck, I might have even been like you and mocked the Catholics for their thoughtless 'following of Tradition".
I probably would have been a faithful non-denominational follower of God. Easter would have come and I would have celebrated the resurrection of our Lord. I would have sang with the choirs "He is risen, He is risen indeed". I would have felt joy in my heart that He chose to die on the cross for ME.
But I would have missed out on something. I would have missed the beauty of the renewal that I get every Lenten season. I am sure that there a Catholics that just 'go through the motions' of the Church. But I am not one of them. And quite frankly I take offense to you so smugly suggesting that I, or any Catholics, celebrate the Traditions of our Church because it's the 'thing' to do or because 'everyone else is doing it' or because the Church says so.
I wish you well and I pray that you take the time to find a 'renewal of your heart' this Lenten season.
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Weather,
I didn't mock anyone and I didn't even mention Catholicism.
I don't know why you chose to read all that into my post.
I don't suppose that God is too concerned about ashes- if only people would repent.
The ashes aren't for God. Protestants usually don't understand the importance, and need for sacramentals like ashes, incense and others. They things are by no means for God, they are for us, the people. They're used to help remind of certain things. Like ashes, that we are dust and to dust we will return. Making the sign of the cross with holy water when entering and leaving a church, is to remind us of our baptism. Incense symbolizes are prayers rising to heaven. We are a physical people. We have our five senses for a reason. Jesus knew that and used physical things all time, like the mud over the blind mans eyes. We Catholics, and some others understand that, we use the physical world to help strengthen our spiritual world.
Protestants usually don't understand the importance, and need for sacramentals like ashes, incense and others.
As the apostles made no use of them, Protestant incomprehension seems eminently comprehensible. To accept the Catholic view, one has to believe that Peter was the first pope, yet failed to mention any of these things to the church; and people find that a hard thing to do. That's why some of them become Protestants.
But Catholicism now declares Protestants Christians, so it seems unlikely that Catholics can see any need for 'sacramentals', either. This is probably a reason for the reduction in Catholic populations in the West- why go through all the rigmarole of rituals, when Protestants get the same result without them.
why go through all the rigmarole of rituals, when Protestants get the same result without them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist
I'll just stop here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata
Many thousands of Catholics have thought similarly.
Upon reading through this thread this morning, I felt compelled to say that it "stops here" by way of closing it, until I realized how terribly silly that would be. Granted, this thread is not about the ritual use of ashes, but on occasion a momentary 'off topic' querie that is asked in true sincerity and which provides another person with a better understanding of another denomination can be a helpful thing. Insulting another person's denomination, however, is not.
The irony in all this is that it's Lent. I personally thought the OP asked a really good question, and it is most certainly a fair and sincere one. There is irony in the fact that the Lenten season is one that is clearly biblically based, and I as I seem to recall, others who adhere to denominations other than Catholicism have also been known to practice many of the exact same 'rituals' as are practiced during Lent in the Catholic Church. For anyone to pass judgment on those rituals --especially during Lent-- defies reason to me. Here's why:
The acts/rituals that the OP asks about are practiced for a reason. From my limited understanding, it's not about "giving up something" for the sake of doing so simply because one is told to do so. To even imply that would tend to discount what the disciples --if not Jesus, himself-- did, so why even include those chapters in the NT, let alone reference them if only to mis-represent the underlying meaning and intention depicted within them? Why not take it one step further, and dismiss the meaning and intent behind penance and the need for repentance, altogether? --Because in a very real sense, that is what you are doing.
Lent is nothing if not a time of reflection, a time of action, and a liturgical season of which its beauty is based around the notion of renewal. To my way of thinking, it's also an invitation of sorts in the opportunity it provides for believers. ALL believers. The notion of renewal, restoration of the heart, and the inwardly based spiritual process of that is something that even this individual is at a loss as to why any believer would either discount, or mock.
--Because it's centered around your savior's sacrifice; it goes to the very heart of what Christianity claims, professes, and is based upon. If the 'giving up' of meat (or anything else, for that matter) helps focus one's attention on what the ultimate sacrifice was to begin with, then please: Someone explain to me why that's a bad thing?
Oh, but if you do, please be sure to include why anyone would bother to become baptized, as well? --You see, 'rituals' have their place. We all do them, whether religiously based, or not. Lastly, there is an excellent article sighted on another thread that provides a wonderful understanding as to what Lent is all about. One that even a nonbeliever could be enriched by. Perhaps if more people read it (let alone practiced it) you all wouldn't be driving fellow believers, fellow Christians off this forum due to having hurt them. (At the same time that everyone claims that there is nothing "Christian" about the Christianity subforum.)
Yeah, I get it.
I'll just stop there.
Take gentle renewal care.
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