Tangible proof for Gods existence

[Lamplight]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Graham, I think I finally have tangible proof of God's existence:

Atheists.


If I follow the atheistic/naturalistic view to it's logical conclusion, then there is no such thing as right or wrong. At best, one can say that the evolutionary process leads us as society groups to do whatever is best for the survival of our society or perhaps humanity at large. And that could very easily include completely exterminating those within our societies that we do not deem "necessary" for our survival, as well as other societies or people we consider a threat to our survival. It could include any number of seemingly cold-hearted, heinous acts against each other and a purely naturalistic worldview could not logically condemn these things.

But, I have yet to meet an atheist who would condone them. Many atheists say that have an internal moral compass that would prevent them from these things and I have no reason to doubt that that is true. But compassion and self-sacrifice do not fit with a naturalistic view of self-preservation, so where do those traits come from, even in people who consider themselves 100% naturalists? What is pulling us above our own survival instincts? I can only think it comes from something or someone higher than ourselves.

So, go hug an atheist and thank them for their help.

It has been speculated that things like compassion and self sacrifice could be attributed to the group mentality of apes. It could be partially a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" type thing, and the fact that a larger group could be more effective at hunting and maybe just survival in general. Of course there's really no reason, if one believes in a creator, that these instincts (if they indeed are) couldn't have been embedded by God. After all, they would likely have served Bronze Age men as well as earlier man, and just as they serve us well today, whether they occur naturally or were placed there. Of course, we humans are also still selfish creatures in a lot of ways, just like other animals. Sometimes it seems our instincts and emotions fight each other over our actions, whether one believes those are two opposing forces (God vs. Satan) or simply a side effect of a complex brain that is nowhere near perfect.

[allen antrim]

There is no proof for god that can be observed in what we observe. Always a dialectical, why, how so, complexity can become more complex, "stuff" can be reinterpreted, knowledge changes and grows displacing other knowledge that may have assumed proved something, etc, can be brought against it. If you are waiting for proof to believe, then you will have to wait your whole life as all these things are not completed yet (not to mention the problems with meaning). Proofs can be constructed mentally/rationally but then these are governed by the rules that pertain to such structures and then one ends with what one started with, otherwise, one would not have a proof.