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Richard, thanks for your honesty and testimony here. Yes, it appears we agree on God's sovereignty at least.
It seems like you are possibly still searching... personally I don't think anyone has the complete truth, you/me/Ray Smith/whoever, so always research things yourself, which it appears you are doing. Don't stop at Calvinism though, they have a lot wrong.
However as you can see if one speaks with logic and reason, then they are usually on the right track. Come let us reason together... most of modern Churchianity doesn't.
Regarding your quote here:
Quote:
So one cannot have joy and peace in the Holy Spirit and still know there is a Hell?...
I'll reiterate what Kat said. NO, you cannot have joy and peace, if you know there is someone in hell forever. Christ commands us to love our enemies - if those enemies end up in hell, how can we love them and have joy and peace that they are suffering forever? Not to mention loved ones/family members that might end up in hell...
This is one of the questions that led me down the path to UR. Always question, always use your logic and reason. And have faith in God's goodness and justice.
Richard, thanks for your honesty and testimony here. Yes, it appears we agree on God's sovereignty at least.
It seems like you are possibly still searching... personally I don't think anyone has the complete truth, you/me/Ray Smith/whoever, so always research things yourself, which it appears you are doing. Don't stop at Calvinism though, they have a lot wrong.
However as you can see if one speaks with logic and reason, then they are usually on the right track. Come let us reason together... most of modern Churchianity doesn't.
Regarding your quote here:
I'll reiterate what Kat said. NO, you cannot have joy and peace, if you know there is someone in hell forever. Christ commands us to love our enemies - if those enemies end up in hell, how can we love them and have joy and peace that they are suffering forever? Not to mention loved ones/family members that might end up in hell...
This is one of the questions that led me down the path to UR. Always question, always use your logic and reason. And have faith in God's goodness and justice.
My freind Ron, who is now a Preacher, Once told me that Arminius was on target on a lot of things...it was just when it came to the Sovreignty of God that he was in error...I am not still searching...i have found the Truth it is just that there is so much garbage to filter through so i am learning and increasing my knowledge and coming closer to God...i am not where i was when i was first saved in 1986...my Faith is a lot stronger than it once was, i.e. Knowing fully the Total Sovreignty of God, and that i did nothing in order to believe, i did not even choose, He called me and opened my eyes so i cannot even take credit for making that choice, etc....There are kernals of Truth, i believe, in every christian system...Calvin was on target as to the Sovreignty of God and Man's Total Inability, Unconditional Election, Perseverence of The Saints...I have learned over the years that just because someone is wrong on a few points does not mean that he is worthless and wrong on everything...
My freind Ron, who is now a Preacher, Once told me that Arminius was on target on a lot of things...it was just when it came to the Sovreignty of God that he was in error...I am not still searching...i have found the Truth it is just that there is so much garbage to filter through so i am learning and increasing my knowledge and coming closer to God...i am not where i was when i was first saved in 1986...my Faith is a lot stronger than it once was, i.e. Knowing fully the Total Sovreignty of God, and that i did nothing in order to believe, i did not even choose, He called me and opened my eyes so i cannot even take credit for making that choice, etc....There are kernals of Truth, i believe, in every christian system...Calvin was on target as to the Sovreignty of God and Man's Total Inability, Unconditional Election, Perseverence of The Saints...I have learned over the years that just because someone is wrong on a few points does not mean that he is worthless and wrong on everything...
Right, like I'd say Arminius was right on Universal Redemption since we are told that God desires all men to be saved, but pretty much wrong with the rest of it.
Richard, if you are interested I recommend reading all of Ray Smith's articles in his series on the Lake of Fire. Especially a couple of the later articles go through where the doctrine of eternal punishment actually came from (HINT: it wasn't the scriptures!). He has a lot of historical references, you can verify by searching the web elsewhere or going to your local library.
Reading this stuff and researching it definitely helped me to understand how and where the concept of eternal hell came from, and how it was not biblical at all.
Richard, if you are interested I recommend reading all of Ray Smith's articles in his series on the Lake of Fire. Especially a couple of the later articles go through where the doctrine of eternal punishment actually came from (HINT: it wasn't the scriptures!). He has a lot of historical references, you can verify by searching the web elsewhere or going to your local library.
Reading this stuff and researching it definitely helped me to understand how and where the concept of eternal hell came from, and how it was not biblical at all.
Your articles of reference are re-education articles. The Bible is not the final authority - Smith is.
Eternal punishment must not exist because God did not make a specific mention of it. Well I guess eternal life through Jesus doesn't exist either since it was not mentioned to Adam, Cain, etc.
Look at this reasoning regarding the parable of the rich man in hades (Luke 16)...
The Egyptians called their place of punishment in the underworld, amenti. When the Greeks borrowed most of the Egyptian myths surrounding this place called amenti, they called it by the name hades.
Thomas Thayer supports Professor Stuart, Greppo's Essay, and Spineto, that: "The Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus." (Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, Chapt. 3, P. 7).
Did Jesus believe that when people die, they are consciously alive and tormented in the pagan hell of the Greeks named after their pagan god, hades?
Why would Jesus use pagan religious doctrines and beliefs to teach spiritual truths of God? Haven’t these things deceived the Church and caused the many different denominations of Christendom? Yes, of course they have, and so have all the parables which Jesus taught that virtually no Church understands. The Church does not even understand the few parables that Jesus explained!
So Hades is reduced to a mere pagan doctrine - even though Jesus said He has the keys to death and Hades in Rev. 1:18.
And then there is the same "no one understands" mantra.
Here's another falsehood...
Most of the population of the world including all of orthodox Christianity continues to cling to this original lie of Satan. God said: "you shall surely die" (Gen. 2:17). But Adam and Eve did not literally physically die on the day that they ate the forbidden fruit, did they? No, and that is not exactly what God said.
They did die that day. Death is separation from life. And on that day, they were separated from the source of life, which is God. Just like a branch that is cut from the tree is dead (being that it is separated the tree that provides its nourishment) - the appearance of death does not immediately appear.
And again with the mantra - 'most of Christendom cling to lie... But...'
Basically all of these articles are what is required of the author to change the intent and meaning of what is written in the Bible - in his mind.
If you want to understand the viewpoint, you really need to read all the articles and research it yourself. Its not just Ray Smith's view. You can research the history of it in many places. You call it "re-education", I call it a real education!
Hades simply means realm of the dead or unseen. It was the pagans who turned the meaning of it to a place of eternal fire and suffering. The bible never even calls hades "eternal".
But no one will convince you of that unless you research it yourself.
Anyway, this thread is not for debate. Start a new thread on it if you wish...
Your articles of reference are re-education articles. The Bible is not the final authority - Smith is.
Eternal punishment must not exist because God did not make a specific mention of it. Well I guess eternal life through Jesus doesn't exist either since it was not mentioned to Adam, Cain, etc.
Look at this reasoning regarding the parable of the rich man in hades (Luke 16)...
The Egyptians called their place of punishment in the underworld, amenti. When the Greeks borrowed most of the Egyptian myths surrounding this place called amenti, they called it by the name hades.
Thomas Thayer supports Professor Stuart, Greppo's Essay, and Spineto, that: "The Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus." (Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, Chapt. 3, P. 7).
Did Jesus believe that when people die, they are consciously alive and tormented in the pagan hell of the Greeks named after their pagan god, hades?
Why would Jesus use pagan religious doctrines and beliefs to teach spiritual truths of God? Haven’t these things deceived the Church and caused the many different denominations of Christendom? Yes, of course they have, and so have all the parables which Jesus taught that virtually no Church understands. The Church does not even understand the few parables that Jesus explained!
So Hades is reduced to a mere pagan doctrine - even though Jesus said He has the keys to death and Hades in Rev. 1:18.
And then there is the same "no one understands" mantra.
Here's another falsehood...
Most of the population of the world including all of orthodox Christianity continues to cling to this original lie of Satan. God said: "you shall surely die" (Gen. 2:17). But Adam and Eve did not literally physically die on the day that they ate the forbidden fruit, did they? No, and that is not exactly what God said.
They did die that day. Death is separation from life. And on that day, they were separated from the source of life, which is God. Just like a branch that is cut from the tree is dead (being that it is separated the tree that provides its nourishment) - the appearance of death does not immediately appear.
And again with the mantra - 'most of Christendom cling to lie... But...'
Basically all of these articles are what is required of the author to change the intent and meaning of what is written in the Bible - in his mind.
What you believe is what you have been taught to believe. And your individual interpretation of scripture is based on certain translations. If you were raised reading a different translation and being taught by different teachers than the ones you have been trained by then you would see the way you believe and the references you provide now as re-education.
I believe in search for the truth one should turn over every stone and not neglect any source. I was raised believing the way you do, for the most part. When i realized the contradictions i had been indoctrinated with and when my spirit began struggling with those contradictions i began looking in as many places as i could ... Now i believe the way I do because of it and my understanding has certainly Changed dramatically.
Let me say this - my views are from the Bible alone. I treat the above articles just like I treat any other source - they are secondary and must be validated by the Bible. The Bible is the standard. So any research I do involves the primary use of this book.
With regards to translations - NASB, and KJV are word for word translations with concordance reference. I don't think you can get any better translations than those with regards to accuracy.
If you want the truth on an issue - consult the Bible alone.
If you want a consensus opinion - then you can consult your myriad of sources.
Yes, everything is open to debate, but out of respect for the OP, this thread is not meant to turn into yet another debate.
I understand what you are saying about the bible being the standard. But the problem is you have your own view of what the bible says, I have my own view of what the bible says - everyone has their own view of what the bible says. Witness the 1000 different Christian denominations we have. Free Will vs. Predestination, Eternal Torment vs. Annihilation, Futurism vs. Preterism, Trinity vs. Non-Trinity, Rapture or not, and of course UR - everyone has their view "straight from the bible", yet they are all different! Which "consensus opinion" is right?
You say the KJV and NASB are "word for word" translations - that's what I used to think too, but then I learned it was not true.
A simple example of where the KJV and NASB both plainly cannot be a "word for word" translation:
- the KJV translates the word "sheol" into the English word "hell" 31 times in the old testament. But in 31 other verses in the OT it translates "sheol" as "grave"!!
- the NASB just leaves it as "sheol". Other versions always translate it as "grave".
So which one is correct? "Grave" has quite a different meaning than "Hell".
See, I did not even realize these kind of translation issues existed when I believed in eternal torment. But as I studied it, I realized it was not as simple as saying the bible says there is a hell so it must be real. One particular translation may use the word "hell" but another translation may not use the word "hell" at all. Thus the meaning is completely different - and we need to dive deeper into the text and the history of the bible. Thus the need for additional study in what you call a "consensus opinion" of a "myriad of sources". And yes there is varying opinion on it all.
But IMHO Universal Salvation is the only conclusion that makes 100% sense of it all. I only came to this conclusion by examining many bible versions, not just the KJV and NASB. Versions like the NIV, Amplified, NLT, Concordant Literal, Rotherham's, Young's, and even the CEV have all been helpful. Sometimes the KJV gets the meaning of a verse perfectly clear. Other times not so much.
So I would qualify the statement about the bible being the standard and say:
The original scriptures are the standard. The bibles we have now, are reasonable translations, but they don't all exactly agree, so we must study it out.
With regards to translations - NASB, and KJV are word for word translations with concordance reference.
Two things a person needs to be aware of.
1. There is no such thing as a word for word translation from the ancient Hebrew or Greek because there is not always an exact match from one language to the next. Many times the closest approximation is used, for some "good enough" means exact, but that is deception.
2. Secondly, if such a word for word translation did exist it would not be written in proper sentences with punctuation added from the language it is translated to. Concerning the only language I know which is english, the ancient scriptures contain no commas or periods, etc.
One other point. When we say to another person "I only use the word of God" that is only true to the degree of what translation we have determined to be accurate, at that point you will find the argument outside of scriptural context. You will not find the information about which translation is more accurate within scripture.
People can critisize me if they want, I know Gods character will bring all mankind to perfection, if no "translation" reads to that end, then they are all wrong.
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