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Old 02-22-2010, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,480,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
How can get a an accurate knowledge of doctrines in the bible from a person who thinks the bible is archaic/ primitive?
That's not the topic and I thought we were having a great discussion but that is a clear judgment you are making about another poster, to be blunt.

Here is how...

The first few definitions of primitive...
1. being the first or earliest of the kind or in existence, esp. in an early age of the world: primitive forms of life.
2. early in the history of the world or of humankind.
3. characteristic of early ages or of an early state of human development: primitive toolmaking.

Both the OT and the NT in respect to God, humanity, and Christianity are justifiably labeled primitive.

The first few definitions of archaic
1. marked by the characteristics of an earlier period; antiquated: an archaic manner; an archaic notion.
2. (of a linguistic form) commonly used in an earlier time but rare in present-day usage except to suggest the older time, asin religious rituals or historical novels. Examples: thou; wast; methinks; forsooth.
3. forming the earliest stage; prior to full development: the archaic period of psychoanalytic research.

Also here the OT and NT in regards to God, humanity, and Christianity are justifiably labeled archaic.

Shakespeare would also qualify if we were to suggest what is present in his plays should be the same in society today.

What the poster is saying is that word for word the bible is archaic and primitive. They did not know the things we know now. However, it is the spiritual principles that are important and ageless making the bible a very valuable tool for understanding.

IOW God commissions us to use the brain he gave us to determine if we should wear dresses or pants, to cover our head or not...Not simply because it is written from an archaic perspective of a primitive culture.

I believe it was an exhortation by the poster to use reason and logic to address the issue..

I wholeheartedly agree and hope I can get an answer to some of these questions I have.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:43 PM
 
370 posts, read 450,428 times
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I would agree that all are predestined, however, I would disagree that some are created to be ETed. That simply isn't what that verse says:

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So it's clear who God's elect are. They are vessels of honor prepared for glory. Also the answer to 'Why have you made me like this?' is not one vessel for heaven and another for eternal torment, which MD is trying to get it to say. It's simply for honor and for dishonor.
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,480,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaminghedge View Post
I would agree that all are predestined, however, I would disagree that some are created to be ETed. That simply isn't what that verse says:

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So it's clear who God's elect are. They are vessels of honor prepared for glory. Also the answer to 'Why have you made me like this?' is not one vessel for heaven and another for eternal torment, which MD is trying to get it to say. It's simply for honor and for dishonor.
I agree.

So what is honor and dishonor?

Does that mean some are predestined? I believe all are predestined to life.

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Who did God foreknow?

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

So if God created you he knew all your days.. Who did God NOT create? Can there even be a predestination of a few without being given a number? What if you fail to be godly one day and happen to die? Then you find out you were never predestined for salvation, you only thought you were but when that last moment came you were "ungodly."

I don't see how that makes sense.
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:32 PM
 
370 posts, read 450,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I agree.

So what is honor and dishonor?

Does that mean some are predestined? I believe all are predestined to life.

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Who did God foreknow?

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

So if God created you he knew all your days.. Who did God NOT create? Can there even be a predestination of a few without being given a number? What if you fail to be godly one day and happen to die? Then you find out you were never predestined for salvation, you only thought you were but when that last moment came you were "ungodly."

I don't see how that makes sense.
All are predestined. All are also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son. Some though are predestined the honor way of going about this and others the dishonor way. The ones of the 'honor way' are the elect. (The many are called but few are chosen.)
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:33 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,924,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaminghedge View Post
All are predestined. All are also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son.
That's how I finally arrived at it too. Those that are fore-appointed (predestined) are the called:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

The word "call" (καλέω) is the same word used when Jesus is said to call the sinner:

Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Also, this same word call is used when the Good Shepherd calls his sheep, to lead them:

Joh 10:2 and he who is entering through the door is shepherd of the sheep;
Joh 10:3 to this one the doorkeeper doth open, and the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth;
Joh 10:7 Jesus said therefore again to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you--I am the door of the sheep;

Put it all together and you've got Jesus calling sinners, dying for sinners (Romans 5:6), God justifying the sinner (Romans 4:5) and the Good Shepherd leading them to final glory:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

Nothing wrong here with being the sinner, it's all good...
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,914 posts, read 29,747,557 times
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To be "predestined" is to have one's destiny pre-determined. That is what the word means. If our destiny is pre-determined, how does free will fit in? It doesn't! There isn't one of us whom God did not know before we were born. He knew us perfectly, but He allowed us to make our own choices.
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:40 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,713 posts, read 3,589,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
To be "predestined" is to have one's destiny pre-determined. That is what the word means. If our destiny is pre-determined, how does free will fit in? It doesn't! There isn't one of us whom God did not know before we were born. He knew us perfectly, but He allowed us to make our own choices.
Katzpur,

How I see it is all are "predestined" to be born again of the Spirit - however we do have freewill to rebel and face judgment of the flesh. The ultimate end point is pre-determined but we do have choice in how we get there repentance/obedience or rebellion/judgment

1Pe 4:6 For to this end also the gospel was preached to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but might live according to God in the Spirit.


Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man may sow, that he also will reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one sowing to his flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:46 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,093,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
To be "predestined" is to have one's destiny pre-determined. That is what the word means. If our destiny is pre-determined, how does free will fit in? It doesn't! There isn't one of us whom God did not know before we were born. He knew us perfectly, but He allowed us to make our own choices.
You are right Katzpur. Predestined means everything is predetermined. Free will doesn't fit in and cannot exist. (I don't think that's what you intended to show, but you concluded correctly). However its not as simple to refute predestination by saying "making choices" = "free will". We still make choices, but the choices have causes, reasons, and are influenced by everything that makes us make the choice. The choices are not "free" but "caused".

Hmm, what should I have for lunch... maybe I'll have the roast beef sandwich... No I had that yesterday. I'll have chicken, oh maybe not the chicken is not that good here... oh look there's pizza on special. That's it I'll have pizza!

See what happened there? I chose what I wanted for lunch. I decided to have pizza. I wanted it and chose it. But several things influenced me and in fact caused me to make the final choice. There is no other choice that I could have made, because all the causes directed my choice.

All choices are determined by influences, desires, circumstances, and previous experience. I desired to eat lunch because I was hungry. I rejected the chicken due to experience. Circumstances (the pizza on special) influenced me to choose Pizza. These are all causes. Who ultimately controls all these causes? God. This is how God directs a man's steps. God is the one who works all things for His own will.

Prov 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will



Now when a man comes to God, he chooses to of his own will. But only because he realized that God exists, that he was a sinner in need of a savior, and that Jesus was that savior. Does a man suddenly come up with this idea that he needs to be saved completely on his own? Does it just pop into his mind - oh I need to be saved, I believe in Jesus now? NO. The man needs faith, the man needs to hear the gospel. But ultimately it is God who brings the man to Jesus. God is the one who draws people to Christ and grants people belief.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him


Belief is granted. God draws us. God even gives us the faith to believe. Salvation is a complete work of God. God controls when a person becomes saved.

Now consider, if God is in control, and directing our steps, and He is even in control of when a man becomes saved, and He wants to save all men... can He fail to achieve this?
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:09 PM
 
63,470 posts, read 39,739,901 times
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It doesn't! It is a silly belief that makes living our lives a total waste of time . . . as we would be "acting" out roles . . . not "living" any kind of life. Cause schmause . . . we were given Free will and Dominion by God . . . God does not lie and does not take back what He has given. Dominion is dominion over EVERYTHING on earth as long as it complies with the "laws" God has in place (physics, chemistry, morality, etc.). Free will means free to choose to stay within or violate God's "laws" of the universe and accept the consequences . . like violating the law of gravity. No matter how you try to evade responsibility . . . WE are responsible for our actions/inactions, attitudes, choices, etc. here on earth, period.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:12 PM
 
51 posts, read 67,090 times
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legoman,

Continuing onward.

There is the household of faith, which would be symbolized by Shem.

Since salvation is of grace (which is the source of faith) it also includes those who are saved like Noah, through the "eyes of the Lord", though they were not called after the faith of Abraham. Noah's ministry was before Abraham. Thereby grace preceded faith. This is symbolized by Japeth who worked with Shem to cover their father's nakedness. Grace saves the common man through the fire from the eyes of the Lord and the nations are benefited through the ministry of faith through the voice of the Lord.

Faith is the calling of the priesthood in Jesus Christ. (Not priesthood as man controls priesthood, but the eternal, everlasting priesthood of Jesus after the order of Melchisedec). "Many are called", there were many Levites who assisted in the sanctuary service. "Few are chosen", there were few members of the family of Aaron. This is all an object lesson of the purpose of God in Jesus Christ. Faith is given to hear and obey the voice of the Lord in a direct communication.

Mt. Sinai and systematic righteousness with its premise of free-will came in after Abraham, until the promised Seed should come to whom the promises were made. Those who were bound under systematic service had turned from the voice of the Lord and they feared the fire. The had turned back in their heart to that relation toward God symbolized by Ham. They were continually renouncing their fathers and praising their own righteousness. This was group free-will. All that the Lord has said, "we will" do...

Later through the Greeks, God brought forth individual free-will. Then the "I will" became the expression. By the time Jesus came, the thinking of Greek philosophy had permeated the thoughts of the everyday person in Galilee.

Eojj
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