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Old 02-22-2010, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690

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I think I am confused (notice I don't even know if I truly am confused) about what others believe about predestination.

I am from Seattle and we have a church here that is growing quite rapidly, Mars Hill Church.

The pastor isn't a sweet talker and he caters to the young and hip which I think is great but one of the doctrines he teaches is predestination.

According to him, there are 10 steps to salvation:
  1. Election (God’s sovereign choice)
  2. Gospel call (proclamation of Jesus)
  3. Regeneration (born again, new heart)
  4. Conversion (faith and repentance from the new heart)
  5. Justification (legal standing before God)
  6. Adoption (membership in God’s family the church)
  7. Sanctification (ongoing growth in holiness like Jesus)
  8. Perseverance (ongoing loving relationship with Jesus)
  9. Death (soul goes to be with Jesus)
  10. Glorification (resurrection body like Jesus)
The Mars Hill Blog | Blog Archive Predestination: Duck, Duck, Damned?
Apparently he thinks God could have saved all but that he doesn't.

Here is the scripture he is trying to back up regarding predestination...

Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

My questions are:

1. How many total saved are there? Seems to me if some are predestined then God would also give a number so that when all the spots are filled up we can stop thinking more will be saved...

2. If God didn't give a total number how does one know that he is really saved? Could it be that you think you are but really aren't?

3. What if the pastor is the one who is not predestined.. how does that work?

4. If there is no more sacrifice for sin then wasn't the amount saved when Jesus died the same amount saved for eternity?

Some of these questions are listed on the link above but I still don't understand. Can someone help?
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Old 02-22-2010, 03:44 PM
 
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It doesn't!!
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:03 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
My questions are:
1. How many total saved are there? Seems to me if some are predestined then God would also give a number so that when all the spots are filled up we can stop thinking more will be saved...

Not a clue what the number is but His elect are out there scattered in the world in every tongue, tribe and nation which is why the great commission is so important, it is only the gospel; the power of God's word that will draw His elect which is what makes sharing our faith less difficult; it is not me who has to figure out clever ways to draw people; the true gospel is all I need furthermore sharing your faith with others gives God the glory-which is humanity's sole purpose on this planet

2. If God didn't give a total number how does one know that he is really saved? Could it be that you think you are but really aren't?

Yes and no. We have assurance of salvation but that only comes when we are doing the things of God; being obedient to His word when we are not then we can easily lose that assurance and for a true Christian that can be excruciating which is why we must ALWAYS examine ourselves...ALWAYS!

3. What if the pastor is the one who is not predestined.. how does that work?

Why would it matter? We must work out our own salvation.

4. If there is no more sacrifice for sin then wasn't the amount saved when Jesus died the same amount saved for eternity?

I believe the atonement was sufficient for all but intended for all that are saved. In other words all those Jesus died to save were saved.
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:16 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
  1. Election (God’s sovereign choice)
  2. Gospel call (proclamation of Jesus)
  3. Regeneration (born again, new heart)
  4. Conversion (faith and repentance from the new heart)
  5. Justification (legal standing before God)
  6. Adoption (membership in God’s family the church)
  7. Sanctification (ongoing growth in holiness like Jesus)
  8. Perseverance (ongoing loving relationship with Jesus)
  9. Death (soul goes to be with Jesus)
  10. Glorification (resurrection body like Jesus)
I have a problem with #3. I believe repentance comes first. As Charlse Spurgeon said, why would I preach to someone to change their ways; to repent if they are already regenerated.

I am not calling anyone a heretic but this is where I differ with my Calvinist brother Mark Driscoll.
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It doesn't!!
Right.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
1. How many total saved are there? Seems to me if some are predestined then God would also give a number so that when all the spots are filled up we can stop thinking more will be saved...

Not a clue the number but His elect are out there scattered in the world in every tongue, tribe and nation which is why the great commission is so important, it is only the gospel; the power of God's word that will draw His elect which is what makes sharing our faith less difficult; it is not me who has to figure out clever ways to draw people; the true gospel is all I need furthermore sharing your faith with others gives God the glory-which is humanity's sole purpose on this planet
First, I want to say thanks for your response. Hopefully I can understand this all.

Why do God's elect need to be drawn again? I mean aren't you under the impression that if one is drawn they are elect so then why are there elect that haven't been drawn yet? I believe my purpose on earth is to live life fully... why must the sole purpose be proselytizing? If those who are Christians are only here to spread the word to those already chosen and to whom God will draw regardless of the witness.. why is it your sole purpose? Seems futile to me.


Quote:
2. If God didn't give a total number how does one know that he is really saved? Could it be that you think you are but really aren't?

Yes and no. We have assurance of salvation but that only comes when we are doing the things of God; being obedient to His word when we are not then we can easily lose that assurance and for a true Christian that can be excruciating which is why we must ALWAYS be examining ourselves...ALWAYS!
So you may be an elect one moment and not the next depending on your actions? That doesn't seem to fit with the predestination idea. How can you be predestined to be saved if the salvation depends on your continued obedience. Either salvation is wholly God as predestination teaches (right?) or it is dependent on the one saved which negates predestination doesn't it? How can you have it both ways? Wouldn't it be more accurate and in keeping with predestination to say once chosen always chosen or is God fickle in his election?

Quote:
3. What if the pastor is the one who is not predestined.. how does that work?

Why would it matter? We must work out our own salvation.
I would have a hard time following the teachings of someone who is not secure in salvation... wouldn't you? What if you (an elect) were being taught by a non-elect? Would the teachings be correct? I see stuff on this forum about "true" christians and how you can trust the teachings of the "non-elect" or "false" christian... how does one prove their eternal security in order to be qualified to teach others?

Quote:
4. If there is no more sacrifice for sin then wasn't the amount saved when Jesus died the same amount saved for eternity?

I believe the atonement was sufficient for all but intended for all that are saved. In other words; all those who Jesus died for were saved.
If all Jesus died for were saved, and Jesus died for the whole world.. how can you say only the elect are saved. I don't see a passage that states that Christ only died for the saved or the elect.. but in fact it states that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and Jesus died for the lost.. where do you find this in scripture?

I am truly trying to understand this doctrine but it seems to contradict what you are saying or maybe even contradicts itself...
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Iiiiiiiiiiiit's scriptural and you are agreeing with someone who doesn't believe or even know the bible.




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Old 02-22-2010, 06:16 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,462,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post




How can get a an accurate knowledge of doctrines in the bible from a person who thinks the bible is archaic/ primitive?
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:21 PM
 
51 posts, read 55,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned post
Funde,

Like Judas, some are ordained to this work. This is agonizing but true, though at an earlier time I would have considered this ridiculous.

I believe that you already know this.

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Eojj

Last edited by june 7th; 02-22-2010 at 07:07 PM..
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,289 posts, read 20,933,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned post
No it's not. Free will is scriptural. Believing that God has already decided who He is going to save and who He is going to condemn -- before anybody has even had a chance at life -- is not only completely uncharacteristic of God, but against everything His Plan of Salvation is all about. God foreordains some people to accomplish great things for Him (because He knows them so well and knows that they will be faithful and obedient), but their actually doing those things is definitely not cast in concrete. Nobody is born a puppet, with his or her salvation already determined beforehand.

(By the way, you misspelled "it.")

Last edited by june 7th; 02-22-2010 at 07:08 PM..
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