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Old 03-02-2010, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,116 posts, read 10,081,974 times
Reputation: 4779

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
As is often misunderstood on this forum Christianity is not about denomination, but about Christ.
I haven't misunderstood anything. The title of this post is "When did Christianity go astray?" It wasn't "When did Christ go astray?" Christianity did go astray; Christ did not.

Quote:
There is such a thing as core doctrine which in fact is not denomination.
And yet Christians can't agree on what it is. As far as I'm concerned, the "core doctrine" of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is our Savior and the only means by which we may be reconciled with our Father in Heaven.

Quote:
I know why you speak what you do, but quite honestly there are those who claim Christ and are not Christian.
Why would someone claim to be a Christian if he didn't sincerely consider himself to be a Christian? And who -- besides God -- has the right to label someone else as a non-Christian? Jesus didn't even like it when His Apostles did that. He called them on the carpet when they attempted to exclude people they didn't believe "qualified" to be known as His followers, and said, "He that is not against us is for us."

Quote:
If you feel offended by it then I am sorry, but it is truth and is supported in scripture. There are false teachers and there are false beliefs and they will get their due.
I'm not offended. Was I supposed to be?

 
Old 03-02-2010, 05:31 PM
 
1,243 posts, read 815,424 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Christianity did go astray
Christianity was simply destroyed, as far as the historic record is concerned. It quite possibly survived in some places and was never recorded. It is never recorded today, so it would not have been before today.
 
Old 03-02-2010, 05:37 PM
 
696 posts, read 516,991 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I haven't misunderstood anything. The title of this post is "When did Christianity go astray?" It wasn't "When did Christ go astray?" Christianity did go astray; Christ did not.

And yet Christians can't agree on what it is. As far as I'm concerned, the "core doctrine" of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is our Savior and the only means by which we may be reconciled with our Father in Heaven.

Why would someone claim to be a Christian if he didn't sincerely consider himself to be a Christian? And who -- besides God -- has the right to label someone else as a non-Christian? Jesus didn't even like it when His Apostles did that. He called them on the carpet when they attempted to exclude people they didn't believe "qualified" to be known as His followers, and said, "He that is not against us is for us."

I'm not offended. Was I supposed to be?
I apologized to make sure you knew I didnt mean to offend.

Christ is Christianity and thus neither can go astray. You seperate the two I do not. And again there are many who claim Christianity but are not Christian. As many claim Christ, but He Himself says truly I do not know you. Christianity can not go astray as Christ is Christianity.

The claim Jesus did not like it is not wholly true either. Jesus taught against hypocrisy. While your use of scripture is accurate the implications are a bit more than that. Thus scripture speaks of false doctrines, sheeps in wolves clothing, etc. It is a bit deeper than your statement makes it out to be.

I also agree with your core doctrine concept in regards to salvation as a Christian. However, there are many divergent paths that claim denomination where no truth in Christ exists.
 
Old 03-02-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,116 posts, read 10,081,974 times
Reputation: 4779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Christ is Christianity and thus neither can go astray. You seperate the two I do not. And again there are many who claim Christianity but are not Christian. As many claim Christ, but He Himself says truly I do not know you. Christianity can not go astray as Christ is Christianity.
You don't separate Christ and Christianity, but you do separate Christians and Christianity. I find that odd.

Quote:
The claim Jesus did not like it is not wholly true either. Jesus taught against hypocrisy. While your use of scripture is accurate the implications are a bit more than that. Thus scripture speaks of false doctrines, sheeps in wolves clothing, etc. It is a bit deeper than your statement makes it out to be.
Trust me, I strongly believe that true doctrines are very important and that Jesus Christ wants us to believe what is true as opposed to what is false. I just don't agree with people who say that if someone is in error with respect to certain points of Christian doctrine, that means he's not a Christian. All it means, as far as I'm concerned, is that he is a Christian who is misinformed or mistaken about certain teachings. Jesus did make a point of telling us how He would divide the sheep from the goats, and it wasn't on the basis of our doctrines. It was on the basis of how we treated our fellow human beings.

Quote:
I also agree with your core doctrine concept in regards to salvation as a Christian. However, there are many divergent paths that claim denomination where no truth in Christ exists.
No truth in Christ or just not complete truth? What about the core doctrine on which you and I agree? I don't know of any Christian denominations who would take issue with that point. And where do we draw the line if, in fact, we believe it's up to us to draw it? A person must believe certain doctrines in order to be a "Christian," but aside from those doctrines, it doesn't really matter?

Last edited by Katzpur; 03-02-2010 at 06:04 PM..
 
Old 03-02-2010, 06:09 PM
 
696 posts, read 516,991 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You don't separate Christ and Christianity, but you do separate Christians and Christianity. I find that odd.

Trust me, I strongly believe that true doctrines are very important and that Jesus Christ wants us to believe what is true as opposed to what is false. I just don't agree with people who say that if someone is in error with respect to some point of Christian doctrine, that means he's not a Christian.

No truth in Christ or just not complete truth? Not even on the core doctrine on which you and I agree? At what point do we draw the line? A person must believe certain doctrines in order to be a "Christian," but aside from those doctrines, it doesn't really matter?
What do you accept as Christian then? I guess you must give examples of what you believe is Christian that other Christians claim is not.

Secondly I do not seperate no one, they seperate themselves. Christ does not seperate the goats and the sheep, they seperate themselves long before they face Him.

I can agree with you that someone who is in error may in fact be a Christian. But there is a difference between error and the very denial of God and His plan in Christ Jesus. Is this where we defer. It would seem to me to be so.

Read my posts to Shibata on Roman Catholics. I am a professing Protestant and I am speaking in favor of Roman Catholics. However, that which is false and not of scripture I can not support. I actually got some replys from Roman Catholics who are happy in what I have said. I guess the question is now what do you view as Christian that many Christians do not?
 
Old 03-02-2010, 06:36 PM
 
294 posts, read 176,828 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I can guarantee you that Tony is not LDS. He would probably be highly offended at the suggestion that he is. And for your information, Mormons do not believe that either Jesus Christ or His Apostles were in error.
I'm not offended, Katzpur - not at all. And I'm not judging the apostles - just stating my belief, as a question of fact, that their opposition to Jesus was a principal factor in his downfall
 
Old 03-02-2010, 07:31 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,452,336 times
Reputation: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Christians began going astray as early as the first century ... Hence the letter of the apocalypse to John which went out to the seven Churches in Asia ... Christ had something against all of the churches, save two, at the time of the writing of revelations. However, i believe Christianity really started being deeply corrupted when Rome made it the state religion in the 3rd century. By the time the 6th century rolled around, Christianity had all but literally gone to hell in a hand basket and thus began the dark ages.
Doh! ... I meant to say in the 4th century ...
 
Old 03-02-2010, 09:14 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 1,595,990 times
Reputation: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Sherente View Post
When Jesus appointed his twelve disciples.
Beside implying that the Holy Spirit is completely powerless, this comment is completely counter to Scripture. In Matthew 16:13-19, Scripture says that Jesus hands the reigns of His Church to Peter to bind and loose (forbid and permit) as Peter (He was the head but worked with all the Apostles) saw fit AND that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. If the Church went to h-e-l-l in a handbasket then Jesus either lied or had no clue what was going to happen. Assuming you believe in the Trinity, if Jesus is God and thus omni-present, He had to have known exactly what was going to happen in the future. So if Jesus was truthful and He knew what the future held, then how can any Christian (follower of Christ) believe anything counter to that. If you don't think Jesus was God, then why even bother following Him at all. He was just a smart man. Either way, I don't understand you.
 
Old 03-03-2010, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,191 posts, read 3,243,826 times
Reputation: 593
Where are we at here? Are we talking about Christianity or are we talking about denominational perversions? Or possibly doctrinal overlays?
 
Old 03-03-2010, 08:22 AM
 
12,403 posts, read 15,050,487 times
Reputation: 14634
Moderator cut: interruption

Any more Catholic or any other denominational bashing and this thread will be closed and infractions applied..
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