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Very good points MumTaft!
I like the way you think.
You are correct that no one can believe unless God opens their heart to the gospel.
Sorry to have to tell you this but, if you don't believe God is going to save all mankind then you will go to hell forever!
Thanks, Eusebius! Bless you for the welcome. I thought I was correct in this understanding regarding the gift of faith, and of course Legoman, confirmed it in the post right after mine anyway, lol.
The things that you mention I also have studied and have come to the conclusion that there is judgment for all and also ultimate salvation for all..
Thank you for a second welcome, meerkat2!
I have read essays and books from many Christians who also believe the same as you, and there is as much compelling evidence in scriptures to support this belief as there is for ET or destruction. I've prayed and prayed on this. I've read the early church fathers (those available) and theologians from down the ages from Origen (condemned for many other things but NOT, oddly enough, for UR) to Julian of Norwich and many more besides and on the opposite side of the debate.
I love the Lord my God! As John Donne wrote in the 15th century during the plague. 'Lord, give me a fear in which I need not be afraid'. Reverence for God's justice is one thing, but why do so many consider it safer to malign his mercy and love and emphasise His majesty and Justice at the expence of the aforesaid mercy and love. God is unchanging. Why is it okay to believe that humanity can be more merciful and compassionate than our creator? We universally condemn Hitler--then espouse eternal torment for anyone 11 years or over who does not yet know Jesus by the gift of faith! Explain that to me!
*shakes head* Just some things that I've been ruminating over.
I've looked at both sides of this issue for months now with extensive research. I have yet to reach a concrete conclusion, but I'm leaning towards universal reconciliation.
In all of my reading there is always a few things that strike me.
1. How non-UR christians appear to have gone from believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour as being necessary to be saved...to 'you must believe in hell and eternal torment, and or infallibility of bible translations to be saved--oh and believe in Jesus'.
Gospel means good news and not the doctrines that have been deduced from it. Just wanted to point that out. Also,
2. I may be wrong but isn't it clearly understood that the ability to repent and believe (i.e. have you ears unstopped etc) is a gift from God? I.E Faith is in itself a gift from our Father God--right??
If so, how can other posters in similar topics claim that the billions who do not believe have only themselves to blame--when they obviously have not been given this gift, and so many die in unbelief.
Nobody can come to Jesus unless called by Father God. Those not called--how are they exercising self-will when it is understood that none of us are capable of faith without the help of the spirit?
3. From what I've read universal Salvation is not a heresy, it is considered hetrodox. Even Augustine considered those who believe in UR to be among the orthodox--if rather 'tender-hearted' as he called them.
4. Both Saint Peter (in Acts) and Saint Paul (epistles) have made clear statement regarding Father God's will to have all men repent, turn to him and be saved. Why do some Christians believe that they can judge and condemn other Christians for nourishing the hope that 'God's will be done'?
UR's may be wrong (I accept that scripture contains statements that can be intepretered to mean eternal dmanation, annhiliation, or universal salvation) but I see no sin in hoping and or believing that God's mercy and love is so utterly unconditional, or that God will accomplish his will/desire/resolve etc to have all turn to him and be saved.
Scripture is also clear on those who like to judge, and who fail to love. Faith, hope and love--and the greatest of these is love. Justice is a GOOD thing, not something to strike terror into God-seeking hearts.
For some reason I'm talkative tonight I was thinking about my above post--obviously a rhetorical question as 'we who are evil know how to give good things to our childen, how much more will your heavenly Father give you' so obviously we humans cannot be more merciful, compassionate and 'humane' so to speak than our Father God in heaven.
Then there is of course the 'Beatitudes'...yes, I'm going to quote.
Matthew 5 43"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Our perfect, unchanging, heavenly Father would have us love those hurt, wrong and persecute us, so that we can be more like him, and glorify his Holy name. In the Old Testament, Father God stated that vengeance is his, and yet never is it mentioned that this vengeance would involve eternal, uneasingly, conscious, inescapable torment. Furthermore, the OT advises people never to loathe the chastening of the Lord, as the punishment flows from his love and is meant to be corrective.
Proverbs 3.11
My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline
or be weary of his reproof, 12for the LORD reproves him whom he loves,
as([URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+3&version=ESV#cen-ESV-16468V"]V[/URL]) a father the son in whom he delights.
I believe this utterly as I have been chastened by the Lord (I believe) and I thank Him daily for it!
I have read essays and books from many Christians who also believe the same as you, and there is as much compelling evidence in scriptures to support this belief as there is for ET or destruction. I've prayed and prayed on this. I've read the early church fathers (those available) and theologians from down the ages from Origen (condemned for many other things but NOT, oddly enough, for UR) to Julian of Norwich and many more besides and on the opposite side of the debate.
I love the Lord my God! As John Donne wrote in the 15th century during the plague. 'Lord, give me a fear in which I need not be afraid'. Reverence for God's justice is one thing, but why do so many consider it safer to malign his mercy and love and emphasise His majesty and Justice at the expence of the aforesaid mercy and love. God is unchanging. Why is it okay to believe that humanity can be more merciful and compassionate than our creator? We universally condemn Hitler--then espouse eternal torment for anyone 11 years or over who does not yet know Jesus by the gift of faith! Explain that to me!
*shakes head* Just some things that I've been ruminating over.
I am still ruminating over things - I do not believe I have all truth, but infinte torment for finite creatures is not just. When I read about what the Spirit is --and the fruits of love, joy, peace -- and that resurrection is of the Spirit, I do not see how being raised can bring eternal torment.
To me there seems to be a balance which can get upset if you focus on one aspect, or just pick the scriptures that support your view. This can be a danger for all, all of the different doctrines we have, have there foundation on the scriptures and have supporting scriptures. I am a believer in God and his son Jesus and believe in both judgment and mercy. For me in scripture it talks about first corruption then incorruption, rebellion brings judgement leads to repentance then mercy. Those that believe in ET will take the scriptures that say believe and be saved, depart from me workers of iniquity then seem to have to adjust things and tie the 2 concepts together (oops mentally insert non believers --- hmmm we all know that non believers are all murderers as Jesus said if you hate your brother you are a murderer) - those that believe in ET think that we who believe in universal salvation believe that there is only love and mercy with no judgment -- however, many times we say there is judgment on deeds.
I agree that scripture says faith is a gift of God and not of us, salvation is not on works and the faith is given to us to believe however we are also told that there is judgment on works.
What I have been thinking for a while is that all resurrection is from death - and just as the first resurrection is those that are "beheaded" Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The dead are judged - suffer the second death ----- I believe this is where the dead are raised (the second resurrection) after judgment. Have you any thoughts on this?
I believe this ties in with 1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
For some reason I'm talkative tonight I was thinking about my above post--obviously a rhetorical question as 'we who are evil know how to give good things to our childen, how much more will your heavenly Father give you' so obviously we humans cannot be more merciful, compassionate and 'humane' so to speak than our Father God in heaven.
Then there is of course the 'Beatitudes'...yes, I'm going to quote.
Matthew 5 43"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Our perfect, unchanging, heavenly Father would have us love those hurt, wrong and persecute us, so that we can be more like him, and glorify his Holy name. In the Old Testament, Father God stated that vengeance is his, and yet never is it mentioned that this vengeance would involve eternal, uneasingly, conscious, inescapable torment. Furthermore, the OT advises people never to loathe the chastening of the Lord, as the punishment flows from his love and is meant to be corrective.
Proverbs 3.11
My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline
or be weary of his reproof, 12for the LORD reproves him whom he loves,
as(V) a father the son in whom he delights.
I believe this utterly as I have been chastened by the Lord (I believe) and I thank Him daily for it!
Love to all!
Yes I agree chastisement is not just for believers but also for non believers --- in Luke 6:35 it says But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
We are to be merciful as God is merciful because he is kind to the unthankful and evil - how is eternally tormenting them kind --- I believe the kindness is in converting us all.
I am still ruminating over things - I do not believe I have all truth, but infinte torment for finite creatures is not just. When I read about what the Spirit is --and the fruits of love, joy, peace and resurrection is of the Spirit I do not see how being raised can bring eternal torment.
I don't believe any of us will have all truth until we are 'one with Christ' and the Kingdom of God is here. Saint Paul speaks of mysteries and even those he tried to explain we argue and debate over. I'm absolutely certain there are many more that we do not know and cannot understand. Personally, I think we have enough to be going on with for now without wanting more anyway
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
To me there seems to be a balance which can get upset if you focus on one aspect, or just pick the scriptures that support your view. This can be a danger for all, all of the different doctrines we have, have there foundation on the scriptures and have supporting scriptures. I am a believer in God and his son Jesus and believe in both judgment and mercy. For me in scripture it talks about first corruption then incorruption, rebellion brings judgement leads to repentance then mercy. Those that believe in ET will take the scriptures that say believe and be saved, depart from me workers of iniquity then seem to have to adjust things and tie the 2 concepts together (oops mentally insert non believers --- hmmm we all know that non believers are all murderers as Jesus said if you hate your brother you are a murderer) - those that believe in ET think that we who believe in universal salvation believe that there is only love and mercy with no judgment -- however, many times we say there is judgment on deeds.
I agree competely. I read something from someone (and I can't recall who) who warns of turning faith into an intellectual puzzle. This resonates with me as it can become so easy to search for minute clues to big questions and miss the whole point--which is to love with faith and hope. It is so, so ridiculously easy to cherry-pick from scripture to suit a particular point. Everyone is guilty of this, including those who believe in UR. Once or twice, I've followed a UR quote and found on expansion that it is questionable proof texting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
I agree that scripture says faith is a gift of God and not of us, salvation is not on works and the faith is given to us to believe however we are also told that there is judgment on works.
You know, there are inconsistancies in the Bible, such as your quote, although to fair I think it was Saint Paul rather than the Gospels that hammered home the point of justification by faith alone (I think anyway, I could be wrong). As we know, according to Saint John, faith without works is dead. Sometimes I wonder if the Bible is so 'interpretive' deliberately so that we are required to read and reread it constantly and so keep it fresh in our minds. If we thought we had the answers cut-and-dried would we keep returning to scripture again and again??
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
What I have been thinking for a while is that all resurrection is from death - and just as the first resurrection is those that are "beheaded" Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The dead are judged - suffer the second death ----- I believe this is where the dead are raised (the second resurrection) after judgment. Have you any thoughts on this?
I believe this ties in with 1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Well, Saint Paul does reveal that not 'all will sleep' as he puts it. So perhaps there will be some survivors. However on the thousand year reign I have to admit I haven't concentrated so much. I've been more concerned with the fate of the lost/unbelieving majority of this increasingly secular world. I have wondered if the second death isn't annihilation. As I've said I do believe that there are passages that support all three stances (UR/ET/A--oddly enough I think that EThas the weakest scriptural support than either UR or A) however, I'm sure that there is a deeper meaning that I haven't gleaned. I've also read something along the lines of Revelation and Saint Matthews gospel refering to the last Jewish rebellion of AD 70---but I am the first to admit that this could be totally wrong. I'm not hanging my hat on it!
I'm sorry, I have nothing better to add.
Last edited by MumTaft; 02-24-2010 at 03:34 PM..
Reason: expansion for clarification
So, you believe Jesus told his disciples to spread the Gospel to the world to "bring comfort". They sacrificed their lives to bring comfort?
That's a weak argument IMO. I saw a WW2 special last night where thousands of men were being blown to bits, captured and tortured etc. just to secure temporary freedom from oppression for their country and families.
Consider Jesus' real purpose below.
Quote:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
It seems that ETrs are so calloused by the thought of unending torment that they no longer value present virtue of knowing perfect love and being free from the power of sin, at least not to the point of understanding why anyone would sacrifice themselves for it.
To bring God's great news of love, abundant life, comfort, hope, healing and freedom from sin/darkness to the masses is not a noble enough cause for ya' eh?
Sad really, and once again shows the great gulf between the two world views.
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Hi, and welcome to the forum 
I was thinking about my above post--obviously a rhetorical question as 'we who are evil know how to give good things to our childen, how much more will your heavenly Father give you' so obviously we humans cannot be more merciful, compassionate and 'humane' so to speak than our Father God in heaven.
I have wondered if the second death isn't annihilation. As I've said I do believe that there are passages that support all three stances (UR/ET/A--oddly enough I think that EThas the weakest scriptural support than either UR or A) however, I'm sure that there is a deeper meaning that I haven't gleaned. I've also read something along the lines of Revelation and Saint Matthews gospel refering to the last Jewish rebellion of AD 70---but I am the first to admit that this could be totally wrong. I'm not hanging my hat on it!
