U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-25-2010, 06:44 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,156,125 times
Reputation: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Of course I see the difference, and I know the translators added the punctuation. That's more or less part of their job. Can you imagine trying to read an English Bible that had no punctuation? The question is, did they make the right decision in this case, when they decided to add the comma? You appear to think they didn't. I think they did.

I see this as a clear indication not that the translators inserted a comma where they shouldn't have, but that Paradise is not the same place as Heaven. I believe that Paradise is where we await our own resurrections and that Heaven is where we will ultimately end up after we have been resurrected. Jesus Christ could have easily been with the thief in Paradise after His death, even though He hadn't ascended to His Father in Heaven at that time.
I believe that at this time paradise is in heaven ... As Paul spoke of one who "caught up" into paradise(2Cr 12:4) ... When Christ returns paradise will be on earth(Rev 2:7). I believe paradise simply refers to the state of affairs in a given place at a given time, a completely harmonious state of being. In heaven Gods will is already done, on earth it is not. So when one is caught up into paradise they are caught up into heaven where Gods perfect will is already done and are able to see visions of things that will be ...

The word paradise means Garden ... As in the Garden of Eden which Adam and eve were exiled from at the time of the fall ... The edenic state of being is paradise, and paradise will be on earth as it is in heaven ...

The word is only used three times in scripture ... Note that though many claim Paradise is the bosom of Abraham, scriptures do not support this idea.


Quote:
By the way, not only is there no punctuation in the original Greek, there are also no definite or indefinite articles. So, we could also argue whether they should have said "God is spirit" instead of "God is a spirit." Depending upon whether or not you use the definite article, you'll get a slightly different meaning. The scriptures also say that "God is light." Suppose the translators had added the word "a" in that verse. What would you think if the verse read, "God is a light." It has a different ring to it, doesn't it? So, yeah, there are always going to be problems with how one language is translated into another.
Indeed ...

Lost in translation ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-25-2010, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,736 posts, read 9,196,667 times
Reputation: 4513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I believe that at this time paradise is in heaven...
And I believe Paradise is like Heaven. It's a state inhabited by the spirits of the righteous who have died. It's a spirit realm, a place of peace and rest, but it is not where God is.

Quote:
The word is only used three times in scripture ... Note that though many claim Paradise is the bosom of Abraham, scriptures do not support this idea.
Could you explain why you feel this way, because I believe they do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2010, 07:17 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,156,125 times
Reputation: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
And I believe Paradise is like Heaven. It's a state inhabited by the spirits of the righteous who have died. It's a spirit realm, a place of peace and rest, but it is not where God is.

Where in scripture do you find evidence of this in the scriptures?
Quote:
Could you explain why you feel this way, because I believe they do.
If you believe the scriptures support the idea that the bosom of Abraham is paradise, please show me the scripture ... ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2010, 07:24 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,156,125 times
Reputation: 867
2Cr 12:3-4
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Who spoke these words? If not God? If Paradise is where diead Christians God, why is there not reference to this in the scriptures?

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


there is no place that God is not, he is omnipresent ... However if the tree of life is in paradise, then why do you think that is were dead christians are and that God is not there? What is the tree of life if it is not Christ himself? And if the tree of life, like the lamb of God, is symbolic of Christ himself, then wouldn't it be clear that God is in paradise? that is to say if you believe that Christ is in fact God?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2010, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,736 posts, read 9,196,667 times
Reputation: 4513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
2Cr 12:3-4
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Who spoke these words? If not God? If Paradise is where diead Christians God, why is there not reference to this in the scriptures?
That's interesting. Another "translation gotcha." The KJV doesn't say "paradise" at all. It says the "third heaven." So we're kind of back where we were when we were discussing the comma in the verse that spoke of Jesus' conversation with the repentant thief.

Quote:
Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


there is no place that God is not, he is omnipresent ... However if the tree of life is in paradise, then why do you think that is were dead christians are and that God is not there? What is the tree of life if it is not Christ himself? And if the tree of life, like the lamb of God, is symbolic of Christ himself, then wouldn't it be clear that God is in paradise? that is to say if you believe that Christ is in fact God?
If there is no place that God is not, then He is here on earth and we are currently in His presence and already in Heaven. I don't believe we are; do you?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2010, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,736 posts, read 9,196,667 times
Reputation: 4513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
If you believe the scriptures support the idea that the bosom of Abraham is paradise, please show me the scripture ... ?
I asked you first.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2010, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Small Town USA
1,371 posts, read 1,346,894 times
Reputation: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Katzpur ... Ill show you something interesting ...


Now read closely ...


Luk 23:43
"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise."


and now this ...


"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise."



Do you see the difference?


There is no punctuation in the original Greek, it is added in by translators when translated into English.

In fact Christ did not ascend to the father until he resurrected, so he could not have been saying that he would be with the thief in paradise the same day which he died.


God bless ...
Interesting Ironmaw . . . and confirms my belief on soul sleep even more, thank you. Lifesigns64
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2010, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Austin, Texas
2,756 posts, read 3,060,675 times
Reputation: 4437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Do you believe it's going to be the instant you die? If the answer is "yes," I'm wondering how you reconcile this answer with the timing of the Last Judgment, which is not going to take place until Christ begins His millennial reign. Is God going to welcome you to Heaven and then, a few hundred years after you've been there, going to tell you it's your turn to be judged? What would be the point of that? Why wouldn't you own "Last Judgment" be the instant you die?
Forrest: "I'm goin' to Heaven, Lieutenant Dan."
Lt. Dan: "Oh yeah...well, you think you can rund down to the corner and get me another bottle before you go?"
Forrest: "Yessir."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2010, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 552,554 times
Reputation: 200
Actually, Biblical Greek has definite articles or they are absent, making a noun "anarthous." When absent the meaning is more generic. An excellent and edifying example is in the beginning of Hebrews where it speaks of times past when God dealt with us in various ways and means, modes and methods, but, in the last of these days, "Speaks to us in (a) son..." (1:2) If the definite article was there it would clearly be speaking of the historical Jesus. There are no indefinite articles, "son" is anarthous. That means God is speaking in "the category of sonship," or, "son-wise." This empowers the book of Hebrews to impact us more since, "We are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones." (Ep 5:30) Sonship, born of God, spirit, soul and body, is the realm of our inheritance.

Ecclesia (church) means, "out-called." The call is the Word. All that He is and does drags us to Him out of everything else that is. The Word is the body of the enabling Spirit to accomplish that Word.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-26-2010, 10:39 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,606,133 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Nope

For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill.
Acts 17 verses 28 and 29
The Third Person in YHWH, the Holy Spirit, is the "He" in whom we live and move and have our being. We do not have our being in the first Person in YHWH, the Father, who departed the creation in His presence of indwelling Glory at the defilement of it when Adam, [former] son of God of the human being kind, disobeyed His one command and ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That is the first death, which death of separation in our being from the Father of Glory let corruption enter in to the Adam and the creation for the Adam, and therefore, our existence is vain/purposeless/useless, for that Glory indwelling for which we were created to house.

So the Third Person in YHWH is ever present in the creation, but the Father of Glory has never been present in the creation since His departure at the fall, and YHWH in the Person of the Word has come down to this creation since the fall at various times in various ways. The Voice of YHWH is God the Word, and that is the third Person in YHWH, and He is come in second creation human being flesh, and is Jesus the Christ.

The whole reason for the Atonement is to unite the cleansed souls back to the Father's Glory, in the name of the New Man, by the adoption of them into the Living Spirit/Christ, and then, at the regeneration of the body into the New Man image, the adoption into the New Man name, which name is "Israel", as He said, in Isaiah 49.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top