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Old 03-05-2010, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,475,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Kat, we have been through this. You are blind to it. Sorry, not again.
Wrong answer.. it's because there aren't any... therefore I asked you to do the impossible.

There is not one verse in the bible that clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved.

You can certainly believe something without proof... That is your choice. But as for me if it doesn't say to believe Jesus is God.. then I choose not to.

Tell me sciota... is it that I'm too hard on you? To upfront with my views or what? Because I seem to think you avoid discussion such as these because I tend to out debate you. Perhaps I am wrong and you are just tired of going round n round..

So be it.
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,391,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Wrong answer.. it's because there aren't any... therefore I asked you to do the impossible.

There is not one verse in the bible that clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved.

You can certainly believe something without proof... That is your choice. But as for me if it doesn't say to believe Jesus is God.. then I choose not to.

Tell me sciota... is it that I'm too hard on you? To upfront with my views or what? Because I seem to think you avoid discussion such as these because I tend to out debate you. Perhaps I am wrong and you are just tired of going round n round..

So be it.
NOT A ONE!
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:04 AM
 
1,243 posts, read 1,561,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
There is not one verse in the bible that clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved.
What is belief necessary for salvation? If any.
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,405,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Wrong answer.. it's because there aren't any... therefore I asked you to do the impossible.
There are, you are just blind. You like to argue, regardless of the topic, as long as Kat is right and gets her pats on the back, that is all that matters right? I have you completely figured out. I have dealt with the likes of you many times over, and what folks like yourself do, is you argue to argue, in spite of the truth presented in front of you.

Quote:
There is not one verse in the bible that clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved.
There are plenty, and they have all been presented to you. Because of your failure to analyze the language, you refuse based on zero exegesis and premise for your case, relying only on logic and reason, rather than Biblical evidence.

Quote:
Tell me sciota... is it that I'm too hard on you? To upfront with my views or what? Because I seem to think you avoid discussion such as these because I tend to out debate you. Perhaps I am wrong and you are just tired of going round n round..
Not at all. I just know your type. It doesn't matter what is preseneted to you, if you feel it convicts you and generates a response that your brain and emotions can't handle, you refuse and debate it, without even considering it with an open mind. You don't have an open mind, so therefore, you will never see the truth in Christ, until you get on your knees and surrender to Christ.
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Old 03-06-2010, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,329,176 times
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Default tis the same stumbling block of old

For myself I have no problem with Jesus being God as I believe He is God.

However, Jesus is NOT God the Father, never was , never will be.

Jesus always made a distinction between Himself and the Father and that distinction is good enough for me.

For those who take Jesus' statement the Father and I are one to mean that Jesus is saying He is God the Father is not logical for Jesus also says the WE are to be one with the Father as He himself is one with the Father. Are we then to assume we are also God the Father? Hardly

There is only ONE God the Father, Jesus is not HIM and neither are we.

Yes Jesus is God and was made flesh, but to take those scriptures to mean John was speaking of the Father being made flesh is to undo the sacrifice the Father made in sending His SON Jesus for us.

The Jews in the times just after the time of Christ also stumbled in this same area believing that the Messiah was God the Father using this scripture to prove that God/Father will not give His glory to another.

Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

But that is NOT what that scripture is saying, read it in context.

Isaiah 42:5-13
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. 10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. 11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. 12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.
13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

The Father is NOT saying He will keep His glory unto Himself, the Father IS saying that He will only give His glory unto Christ and NO OTHER. For is it not Christ who is the light of the Gentiles?, is it Not Christ who delivers out of the prison houses? is it not Christ who opens the eyes of the blind?

Jesus is God, He is just NOT God the Father.
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Old 03-06-2010, 02:29 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,860,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Wrong answer.. it's because there aren't any... therefore I asked you to do the impossible.

There is not one verse in the bible that clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved.

You can certainly believe something without proof... That is your choice. But as for me if it doesn't say to believe Jesus is God.. then I choose not to.
What would be the consequences of a believer not believing that Jesus is God?

John 8: 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins..... 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 10: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

Seems to me that the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying. It is too bad that by their own scriptures, they refuse to ask the Lord for the wisdom in understanding His words as the scriptures cannot be broken.

Genesis 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God spoke for the act of creation in the plurality and then performed the act of creation in the singular. Note the pronouns.

As God is the Creator so is God the Redeemer as the Lamb and God share the same throne.

Revelation 22: 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.....3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Are there any proof of this necessity hindering a believer from the first fruit of the resurrection: the inheritance?

Revelation 7: 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So the salvation message is maintained, but by not believing that Jesus is God will hinder a believer from being presented as a vessel unto honour in God's House at the pre tribulational rapture event.

As there are verses declaring God as the Saviour and verses declaring Jesus as the Saviour: and since God would not share His glory with no other: then by His grace, can a believer see that Jesus is God.

Luke 10:22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom theSon will reveal him.

John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This is to be the mind of every believer:

Philippians 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men..... 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So there are many verses that says that Jesus is God and the consequences of not believing He is God, a believer will die in his sins, but he is saved as His still, as His promises declares, but as it is written that no flesh shall glory in His presence, all believers will have to come face to face with Jesus as God to give Him the glory and worship He deserves for if you do not honour the Son as God then you are not honouring the Father as God. That is the judgment to be given.

John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 14: 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
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Old 03-06-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: God's Country
23,000 posts, read 34,285,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Kat, we have been through this. You are blind to it. Sorry, not again.
I know what you mean. Many have posted Scripture that prove that Jesus is God, sad that some refuse to believe His Word.
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Old 03-06-2010, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,475,192 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
There are, you are just blind. You like to argue, regardless of the topic, as long as Kat is right and gets her pats on the back, that is all that matters right? I have you completely figured out. I have dealt with the likes of you many times over, and what folks like yourself do, is you argue to argue, in spite of the truth presented in front of you.
To the contrary.. if I try to spell something I look it up.. If I use a word I check the dictionary before hand so I know I am using it correctly. I refuse to argue about something that has no proof.. for example, creationism vs evolution... there is no physical evidence on either side therefore it is useless to argue. Here we both agree to use the bible as the official word of God... right? So there are plenty of evidences to use in the bible, even though there is also no physical proof of God in the first place....

And I am nearly never right.. I might come close but still probably something is wrong.

You are just labeling me so I fit neatly in your "Justification for why I am right about this" box. You think if you attack my reasons for debating the issue that you have attacked the issue... but you have not.



Quote:
There are plenty, and they have all been presented to you. Because of your failure to analyze the language, you refuse based on zero exegesis and premise for your case, relying only on logic and reason, rather than Biblical evidence.
I think your study of other languages has impaired your ability to define English words. I said, "...clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved."

If you had a CLEAR statement such as "Jesus is God," or "I am GOD," or even a "whoever does not believe that Jesus is Spirit is an antichrist," there would be no need to debate the issue.

And we both know what a pain it is to prove a negative... So it seems we are at an impasse...

But for your edification here are the synonyms of "clearly":

plainly, understandably. Clearly, definitely, distinctly, evidently imply the way in which something is plainly understood or understandable. Clearly suggests without doubt or obscurity: expressed clearly. Definitely means explicitly; with precision: definitely phrased. Distinctly means without blurring or confusion: distinctly enunciated. Evidently means patently, unquestionably: evidently an error. (Websters)

Even trinitarian scholars admit the deity of Christ is IMPLIED and/or not specifically addressed. The reasoning given for the trinity not making sense is that it is not UNDERSTANDABLE .. that is the first clue it is not clearly stated. If it were no one would need to say God cannot be understood.. right?

Quote:
Not at all. I just know your type. It doesn't matter what is preseneted to you, if you feel it convicts you and generates a response that your brain and emotions can't handle, you refuse and debate it, without even considering it with an open mind. You don't have an open mind, so therefore, you will never see the truth in Christ, until you get on your knees and surrender to Christ.
The reason it bugs me when people refer to Christ as God is not because it convicts me. It is because God is all in all. If people pray and worship Christ but leave God out, that's sad. I think that is a stumbling block for some people and is extraneous to the teachings in the bible. I have been a trinitarian before, remember, for nearly 30 years.

In reality, Jesus may well be God for all I know. I certainly don't presume to know that which I cannot possibly know (as God cannot be proven). BUT it is my humble opinion that the BIBLE teaches the JESUS is the SON of MAN, the SON of GOD, the CHRIST, the ANOINTED ONE.... and he who denies Jesus came in the flesh is antichrist. Therefore, if I feel I can add to a discussion on this topic, I probably will interject.

I think you are missing out on the awe that comes from knowing Jesus was a man just like yourself who gave up his own will to carry out God's will. He, by total obedience to God, was able to remain sinless. Now that is a much better solution to the mystery than turning God into three persons. IMO

Is that true? That you believe Jesus is God because no man could be sinless so it had to be God in human form to accomplish it?

And yet HOW MUCH MORE amazing is it if God accomplished it THROUGH a man who had his own wills and desires, but who God loved as his only son, so much did he love Jesus that Jesus loved him back with total faith, trust, and obedience.... UNTO death.

I believe that is MUCH MORE plausible than that God was born again as flesh so that he could tell people to love the other him, God the Father. The God the Son is tortured and killed (but only because he gave up his God power) for the sins of the people to appease God the Father while sending God the Holy Spirit as a helpmate to believers....

So what do you think scripture CLEARLY states?

Jesus is God, Jesus might be God, Jesus was probably God.... or are you so stuck in your ways that you deny the obvious: THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE THAT clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved.
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:23 PM
 
370 posts, read 450,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE THAT clearly states Jesus is God or Jesus is Spirit or one MUST believe Jesus is God to be saved.
Jesus is actually called the Spirit, Kat. But this makes sense anyway as the Father is also the Spirit and they are said to be one. The Spirit is how everyone will eventually be one with God. God's Spirit is in Christ. Christ's spirit is in us. It's the same spirit, but currently Christ must continue to mediate for us.

Anyways here's the passage that says that:
But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted because the veil is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but when a person turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,475,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post

So there are many verses that says that Jesus is God and the consequences of not believing He is God, a believer will die in his sins, but he is saved as His still, as His promises declares, but as it is written that no flesh shall glory in His presence, all believers will have to come face to face with Jesus as God to give Him the glory and worship He deserves for if you do not honour the Son as God then you are not honouring the Father as God. That is the judgment to be given.
So then we could rightly replace all the "Jesus'" throughout the NT with "GOD" and it would read the same? Same with Father and son right?
Your last verse?

John 5: 22For GOD judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto GOD: 23That all men should honour GOD, even as they honour GOD. He that honoureth not GOD honoureth not GOD which hath sent GOD.
John 14: 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in GOD.



I propose to you that if Jesus is God then in all verse the two names should be interchangeable.. right?

So was Jesus being deceptive when he talks about God as if he is HIS OWN God and not himself?

I don't have time to address each of the verses you point out but I have answered them on past threads. Feel free to look them over. I suspect however that you are set in your ways and wouldn't bother to take my opinion into consideration. As a former trinitarian I realize that everything in the bible appears to prove this three in one phenomenon.. but it is an illusion which quickly fades when one takes off the trinitarian glasses and reads the text. IMO
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