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Old 02-25-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,191 posts, read 3,151,675 times
Reputation: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
YIKES I disagree.. read the whole thing:
Lev. 20 has all sorts of things you must be put to death for.

If you think that God is against homosexuality then you must also believe that God is against eating rabbit, pork, and not only that but if you have sex with a woman on her period then you both are cut off from your people... also adultery should result in death.. I mean these are instructions for a primitive culture.. I don't think we can apply any of these things to modern times and even though I disagree with this lifestyle.. I also disagree with an actor's lifestyle as that is not for me...

So we see that if you notice that sleeping with your sister is lumped together with sleeping with animals...

Oh and BTW AIDS is thought to originate from the eating of monkey brains and is spread by sexual intercourse and BIRTH therefore not ONLY homosexuals are susceptible to getting the virus.
Can we please remember context as well as the rest of the Bible?

Leviticus 20

Punishments for Sin

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives [a] any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. 3 I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, 5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech.

6 " 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
7 " 'Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [b]
9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.
20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.
21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
22 " 'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own. 27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

Can someone please show me where the pork and rabbit is in this chapter?
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,648,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Sparrow, your post is powerful.

I honestly don't know what to think.

If it really is spiritually harmful to people who are in hs relationships, is it loving to say that it isn't?

But if we've all been wrong about how we're interpreting these Scriptures, then what we are doing by continuing to hold to these beliefs is at least as spiritually harmful to ourselves as well as to the gay community.

Regardless, even if we are correct in believing that the Bible does not condone hs relationships, when we see the kind of damage that is being done to people by the hate that has been fostered to a great degree by us, don't we have to acknowledge that our approach is horribly, shamefully wrong? Isn't it absolutely imperative that we repent and change?
We must repent and change.. People claim that they love the person but not the behavior... yet you see that they act like they hate the person... It's sad. We are called to love each other, not just love the ones just like us. I see the scorn on people's faces and all I can think of is how disappointed God must be in us in loving our neighbor.
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:40 PM
 
4,723 posts, read 3,818,517 times
Reputation: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Can we please remember context as well as the rest of the Bible?

Leviticus 20

Punishments for Sin

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives [a] any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. 3 I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, 5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech.

6 " 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
7 " 'Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [b]
9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.
20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.
21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
22 " 'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own. 27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

Can someone please show me where the pork and rabbit is in this chapter?
The person clearly made a mistake in the chapter they referred to, however in earlier chapters of the same book (Leviticus) we find what he was referring to.

In the chapter above that you posted we read this:

Quote:
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds.
Now since you mentioned pork (swine) and the rabbit, here are the prohibitions in an earlier chapter of Leviticus:

Quote:
And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
Leviticus 11:6-8


I think you knew this already. Admittedly the guy made a mistake but his point was, [SOME] Christians are quick to point to Leviticus 20:13 but ignore other passages where the bible prohibits other things.

Clearly you watched the videos. Any thoughts?
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:43 PM
 
4,723 posts, read 3,818,517 times
Reputation: 978
One of the profound points made in the videos was that biblical literalist leave NOTHING to discussion or interpretation beside their own. They ONLY make pronouncements. In their world the bible says whatever they want it to mean and that's the end of it. No other considerations - end of story!
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:13 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,137,349 times
Reputation: 315
When I look at the videos of the "christians" threatening to kill those that are homosexual it makes me think of when the adulteress was brought to Jesus

This is what he said

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

All I know is that it is not my place to judge.
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:18 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,137,349 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
One of the profound points made in the videos was that biblical literalist leave NOTHING to discussion or interpretation beside their own. They ONLY make pronouncements. In their world the bible says whatever they want it to mean and that's the end of it. No other considerations - end of story!
I do agree with you .......
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:33 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,137,349 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post

If it really is spiritually harmful to people who are in hs relationships, is it loving to say that it isn't?
Pleroo,

If you truly feel that it is a sin, then for you it is a sin and yes when you talk to someone that is what you say In my opinion I believe the bible says" ........." but I feel that threatening, demeaning, reviling is totally against what Jesus was about, and we are to be like him.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,648,560 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Can we please remember context as well as the rest of the Bible?

Leviticus 20

Punishments for Sin

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives [a] any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. 3 I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, 5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech.

6 " 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
7 " 'Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [b]
9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.
20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.
21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
22 " 'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own. 27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

Can someone please show me where the pork and rabbit is in this chapter?
Both are considered as "unclean" I believe... but really the point is: do you agree that all these things are of the same sinful magnitude? I mean it is equally sinful to lay with an animal as to lay with your father's sister? or what? Inside the hut or is it okay outside the hut? What if it is just to have a baby? Then only servants?

I think that unless you are afraid "that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out" then you are okay.

OR did God want them to do the opposite of those who lived there... as in to set them apart? Do you really think that all these commands are still as culturally valid as they were before? I think most of those can be passed down orally or well... I don't know where I learned that we shouldn't have sex with our Aunts and Uncles...Does that make sense?

BUT should you impose such rules on other people? I mean it is one thing to follow them yourself but why impose them on others? Unclean and clean animals... Pigs are nasty little creatures...but they taste good. Should I not eat pork because the culture then wrote it down? Should I also pack up my donkey to go to town?

Love your neighbor... even if they are homosexual.. that is the commandment to all Christians. Is it not? Yet Leviticus and the culture depicted therein should supersede that? just not the bloody stoning and killing parts (yet).

At what point do we see that we should be more civilized than that?
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:36 AM
 
10,179 posts, read 4,834,579 times
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If I had a son, and I invested all my hopes and dreams into him with the hope of him one day marrying, and having kids to carry on my name and come to find out he marries another man, I would be so dissappointed. Sure, I would still love him but to tell him it is O.K. to have a lifestyle that goes against nature, I just could not do that.

I only have one daughter and so far she has been dating boys. I just hope the militant gays don't get her to think it is O.K. to go against nature and have female to female relationships.

My one friend in Columbus has a lot of "gay" friends. I don't think he is gay himself. One of them was in seminary and just wondered what it would be like to have a relationship with another guy. Now he has aids or hiv or whatever you want to call it.

They want to paint oh such a pretty picture of the gay lifestyle but the end of such a lifestyle is sexually transmitted diseases, aids or hiv etc.

You people want to get all gooshy lovey dovey with the homosexuals but what would you do if one of them infected your only son or daughter with aids or hiv and they died such a horrible death?

I love the person that is homosexual but I will never condone such practices which go against nature.
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:52 AM
 
10,179 posts, read 4,834,579 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Love your neighbor... even if they are homosexual.. that is the commandment to all Christians. Is it not? Yet Leviticus and the culture depicted therein should supersede that? just not the bloody stoning and killing parts (yet).

At what point do we see that we should be more civilized than that?
Loving your neighbor should such a one be a sodomizer does not mean we should condone his sodomizing.

Neither should we harm them since love seeks the highest good of the object of that love.
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