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Old 11-14-2010, 04:22 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,760,317 times
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New International Version (©1984)
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything(apokatastaseOs pantOn), as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.


Do i believe the teaching of apokatastaseOs, you're darn right i do ... And proud of it.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-14-2010 at 04:35 PM..
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Old 11-14-2010, 05:25 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,937,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't think you do...but this is a he said she said....

Neither of these support your case as the topic of Romans 5 is Israel, as you scroll back to Romans 4:1, and 2 Cor 5, the very next verse Paul urges people to.....BE reconciled to God. So...your point is moot..
All of it is relevant. The topic is "when" reconciliation takes place. I've given you the scriptures that tell you when we were reconciled to God. Yes, we experience it subjectively through faith, but that is not when it objectively occurred. Do you get any of this?

Quote:
Believers yes.....Israelites of the faith ...yes....this is effective by faith.
You missed the part where Paul says God did not reckon to "them" their trespasses, as opposed to us (those of faith):

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

Quote:
I use plenty of translations and such...but your argument is still with Paul.
You deny we are justified by faith in Christ alone.
Let's go through the three passages you quoted previously:

First:

Gal 3:22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.
Gal 3:23 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed,
Gal 3:24 so that the law became our child-conductor--to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous,

Who's faith (or faithfulness) declared us righteous? The faith of Jesus Christ (ver. 22) given to us.

Second:

Rom 5:1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Paul tells us in the preceding verse that Christ was raised because we were declared righteous, here:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Faith makes this objective fact known to us, and by faith, we subjectively have peace toward God. But the act of justification itself takes place at the cross, not in our believing.

Third:

Rom 3:24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--
Rom 3:26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith:
Rom 3:28 therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.

The faith spoken of here is the faith of Jesus, not man's faith. This faith of Christ is given to those who believe (Gal 3:22).

My friend, you and I were justified objectively by Christ alone at the cross, before we were born into this world. And not only so, but God brings the knowledge of our justification to us (through regeneration and faith of the Holy Spirit) while we were yet His enemy. I've shown it to you using scripture numerous times.

Now granted, the truth of our objective justification is not accepted by mainstream Christian churches, but so what? Martin Luther knew and spoke of it 500 years ago, and the Lutheran Churches (orthodox ones) still profess this truth in their Confessions even if not from the pulpit. Even the WCF speaks of it, albeit using archaic terms and phrases that obscure it's truth for those not familiar with it.
That this truth has been lost through most of Christiandom should not surprise us.

Their is an excellent book (written in the reformed tradition as opposed to UR) that goes into this topic in much more detail than I can provide here. It will answer your objections. They are not new. I'll post it here for your consideration:

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/sa...rist-alone.pdf

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-14-2010 at 06:53 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-15-2010, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,406,855 times
Reputation: 259
Default I have yet to see an argument that you refuted

Originally Posted by rodgertutt
I have yet to see an argument that you successfully refuted.

If you think you did, IMO it certainly didn't include the contents of the fifteen chapter exposition that J. Preston Eby wrote.

THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I have yet to see your own arguments.
J. Preston Eby's are my arguments too.

Fact is, my intelligence is probably below average.
Some of what is being said on this thread is way over my head.

But I have read nothing at all that IMO refutes anything that URs Ray Prinzing, and J. Preston Eby, and Canadian George Hawtin have said on this subject.
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Old 11-15-2010, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,434,646 times
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Alabama,

Sure, what Christ did is enough for everyone, but that is only imputed onto oneself when they have accepted Christ, through faith, then they are justified. The verses you seem to be using to support your view ONLY deal with those who have believed, believe or will believe. The context has nothing to do with the reprobate or unregenerate, who CONTINUES to be so. We can tell people right and left that they are justified by Christ's death, but this has no bearing on them being JOINT HEIRS with Christ UNTIL they have believed. They are dead up until that point. If you don't believe this, then in my opinion, you don't believe the gospel.
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Old 11-15-2010, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,406,855 times
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Exclamation Sooner or later everyone will be saved

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama,

Sure, what Christ did is enough for everyone, but that is only imputed onto oneself when they have accepted Christ, through faith, then they are justified. The verses you seem to be using to support your view ONLY deal with those who have believed, believe or will believe. The context has nothing to do with the reprobate or unregenerate, who CONTINUES to be so. We can tell people right and left that they are justified by Christ's death, but this has no bearing on them being JOINT HEIRS with Christ UNTIL they have believed. They are dead up until that point. If you don't believe this, then in my opinion, you don't believe the gospel.
Sooner or later everyone will be saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their unbelief.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST THAT HE WILL SAVE EVERYONE
absolute assurance in jesus christ
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Old 11-15-2010, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,434,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Sooner or later everyone will be saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their unbelief.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST THAT HE WILL SAVE EVERYONE
absolute assurance in jesus christ
Too bad you have no faith in Christ's words...by this statement alone, you have called Him and all His apostles of the first century liars.....does not soon, at hand and quickly mean anything to you?
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,406,855 times
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Lightbulb Bible threatenings explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
does not soon, at hand and quickly mean anything to you?
"Soon, at hand, and quickly" do not mean that God will not eventually save everyone.

What does mean something to me is that there are no scriptures that back up the idea that God will not eventually save everyone.

Bible Threatenings Explained;
or, Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment or Annihilation
Shown to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration.
by J. W. Hanson, D.D.

http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/BibleThreatsExplnd2.htm (broken link)

The entire writing can be read below the index of topics.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-15-2010 at 04:22 PM.. Reason: corrections
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:51 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,937,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama,

Sure, what Christ did is enough for everyone, but that is only imputed onto oneself when they have accepted Christ, through faith, then they are justified. The verses you seem to be using to support your view ONLY deal with those who have believed, believe or will believe.
You've not really seen the difference between Justification (objective) and imputed righteousness (subjective). I don't really know how else to explain it... To me it's as bright as the sun.

Quote:
The context has nothing to do with the reprobate or unregenerate, who CONTINUES to be so. We can tell people right and left that they are justified by Christ's death, but this has no bearing on them being JOINT HEIRS with Christ UNTIL they have believed. They are dead up until that point. If you don't believe this, then in my opinion, you don't believe the gospel.
It does though. All mankind (including those currently unregenerate and whom you call reprobate) were objectively justified (declared righteous) at the cross and will be brought to final glory:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

I understand that neither you, nor I, know when all will be regenerated, or brought to faith. But how does that equate to saying that "some", or for the ETer "most", never will? Where is the faith in God regarding that thinking? For all we know, Jesus may choose to regenerate and bring those not of faith to faith at the very moment of physical death or anytime thereafter. One thing we do know is that every man who comes into this world IS enlightened by Christ:

Joh 1:9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;

Who is to say that the light of Christ will not continue to shine within all until all are regenerated and brought to faith? Darkness will never overcome the light of Christ my friend.
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,434,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
"Soon, at hand, and quickly" do not mean that God will not eventually save everyone.
The kingdom, and the ager to come, is already here if we were to believe He meant what He said, so therefore, the consummation of the ages, has already begun, which leaves UR.....a failure.

Quote:
What does mean something to me is that there are no scriptures that back up the idea that God will not eventually save everyone.
There are many......you just appear to be in denial from accepting them.
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,434,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
You've not really seen the difference between Justification (objective) and imputed righteousness (subjective). I don't really know how else to explain it... To me it's as bright as the sun.
I do understand it brother...as I said....Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all (objective), but only through personal, proclamation of faith, is righteousness imputed subjectively onto one self.

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

By faith, our sins have been forgiven. Justification, just like its opposite, condemnation, is a judgment of God. It is a judicial act of God in which He, as the Judge of all, pronounces a verdict of acquittal upon all sinners. Therefore, it is an act of God outside of us, not, like conversion, within us, that imputes righteousness into us, completing our justification unto life, by faith.

Objective justification is God’s declaration of amnesty to the world of sinners on the basis of the vicarious obedience of Christ, by which He secured a perfect righteousness for all mankind, which God accepted as a reconciliation of the world to Himself, imputing to mankind the merits of the Redeemer
- Dr. Little

Quote:
It does though. All mankind (including those currently unregenerate and whom you call reprobate) were objectively justified (declared righteous) at the cross and will be brought to final glory:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
We differ here on eschatology. However, Romans 8 is bearing on the Jewish faithful....David, Abraham etc. The subject in 8 is the law.

Quote:
I understand that neither you, nor I, know when all will be regenerated, or brought to faith. But how does that equate to saying that "some", or for the ETer "most", never will? Where is the faith in God regarding that thinking? For all we know, Jesus may choose to regenerate and bring those not of faith to faith at the very moment of physical death or anytime thereafter.
These are un-scriptural assumptions...why go there?

Quote:
One thing we do know is that every man who comes into this world IS enlightened by Christ:

Joh 1:9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;
The literal of kosmos...is System. The topic here is the system God has placed before man, that has a law. Faith.

Quote:
Darkness will never overcome the light of Christ my friend.
In that I agree my friend.
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