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Old 02-25-2010, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,435,356 times
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For those that feel Preterism leads to Universalism:

What is the difference between full and hyper-preterism?

Full preterism is simply the view that all eschatological events necessary to secure complete redemption for all believers, past, present, and future have been fulfilled. Full preterism is not universalism. Full preterism does not deny the need for faith in Jesus Christ. It merely says that the redemptive events necessary for eternal life (i.e., the cross, resurrection) were accomplished. The Parousia comes through the faith of Jesus Christ. That is, it is called the Faith because it is given by God. Therefore it is called "the righteousness of the faith" in reference to Abraham. And all who believe believe because they were given faith and considered a part of Him to Whom the promise was made, i.e. "to His Seed, which is Christ." Full preterism affirms the gates of the city are always open (Isaiah 60; Revelation 21) for those who were promised everlasting life before the age began. God will give them faith and will give them His Parousia or Presence, through Whose Presence they are immediately placed in the holiest and made the righteousness of Christ.

Hyperpreterism is not universalism. Hyperpreterism is the belief that no one after AD 70 will have eternal life and that no soteriological benefit (i.e. salvific benefit) extends beyond AD 70. They (hyperpreterists) may believe that those particular events happened, but because they do not believe they apply past AD 70, they, by sheer virtue of their own confession, do not believe in the need for forgiveness of sin. After all, if you don't believe Christ died for you since you were born after AD 70, then you do not believe the Gospel as it is clearly portrayed in the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand; (2) by which you also are being kept safe, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, (4) and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;

Notice that mandatory within the Gospel elements is to believe "that Christ died for our sins." If one believes that Christ only died for those pre-AD 70, then they do not believe Christ died for their sins or the sins of anyone else post AD 70. Again, hyperpreterism is not the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel is to believe that Christ's work was for you.

Please mark the distinctions, as there is always going to be someone or some idea purporting to affirm errant definitions of full preterism and hyperpreterism.

Again, neither full preterism nor hyperpreterism is universalism. First of all, a hyperpreterist could not be a universalist because, according to the hyperpreterists, no one after AD 70 has eternal life. This view clearly denies universalism. After all, universalism says that all men everywhere throughout all time have or will have eternal life through any path they take.

And please make the distinction between universalism and universal redemption. Universalism teaches that all roads lead to eternal life. Universal redemption teaches that Christ effectually redeemed all men unrestrictively and that is why all men have or will have eternal life.

Biblical redemption teaches that Christ's death effectually brought about redemption for all He intended to redeem. And the Gospel is that those whom Christ intended to redeem either do believe or one day will believe.

To go beyond this affirmation is to step into the mind and knowledge of God. We simply assume that all who confess Jesus as Lord, His Resurrection, and salvation solely by grace are His. We are to make no judgments about who is or who is not elect or who is predestined. Paul simply declares that we as believers are a part of the church, which was predestined to eternal life. If you have true faith given by Christ, that faith will continue, for "we are not of those who draw back unto perdition, but we are of those who believe unto the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:39), "unless you have believed in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:2). There are some who have believed in vain:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

Though we have heard some say that one's affirmation of fulfilled eschatology either shows one's damnation or salvation, we do not believe this to be so. All of us are at different places in our theological journey, learning as God's gracious Providence commands. We learn no faster or slower than He dictates. We cannot judge one's salvation simply because they are supposedly learning at a slower pace. After all, we preterists above all know that God has been ever so long-suffering toward us, and will always be continually long-suffering toward us as He gradually and eternally removes the baggage of humanism from our minds. The throwing off of baggage is an eternal process, but it is a process that is God-ordained for the eternal acknowledgement by God's children that His mercies indeed endure forever and that His compassions fail not.

Physical death does not stop the process of learning; for how could we possibly exhaust the knowledge of the unsearchable riches, holiness, and power of the eternal God?

If we were ever able to come to a complete knowledge of God, then would we not be God? Knowing how long-suffering the eternal God will be with our eternally finite knowledge should cause humility and more long-suffering toward others who might not be where we think they should be, especially in light of the fact that if they don't immediately believe what we think they should believe, then that is God's absolute sovereignty over their hearts. He knows what is best for them at any given time in the scheme of their eternal pursuit of truth.

I am a Full Preterist.

God has declared salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son (Rom 3:21-25: 1 Cor 15:3; Heb 9:22; Heb 10:9-18; Acts 10:43). God's Holy Nation is eternally covenanted under Christ Jesus (1 Pet 2:9; Matt 21:43; Heb 8:6-13; 12:22-24; Heb 13:20), the divine Potentate of the Kingdom of God (Matt 28:18; Matt 16:18-19; Rev 1:5; 1 Pet 3:22; Eph 1:20-23; Phil 2:7; Col 1:15-19; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Tim 1:17; 6:15; Dan 7:14,27; Isa 9:6-7; Luke 1:31-33).

God the Holy Spirit extends the New Covenant Kingdom (John 6:63; 14:16-17; 2 Cor 3:6-12; Heb 6:4-5; Matt 12:31-32) by demonstrating His presence and power in the Church. His work is evidenced through a diversity of means, from supernatural manifestations and the sacraments to the reformation of men's consciences (Rom 12:4-21; 1 Cor 12-14; Gal 5:16-26; John 15:26; 16:7-15; Acts 7:51). Citizens of the Kingdom of God are led by--and filled with--God the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16,25; Mark 1:12; Matt 12:28; Luke 1:41,67; 2:25-27; 4:14, 18; 11:13; John 1:33; 3:5-8; 4:14/7:38-39; 14:14-17; Rom 8:9; 1 Pet 1:11; 1 Cor 12:13; 1 Thess 5:19; Rom 14:17).

Christ's mystical body is the Church, the pillar and ground of truth and the Temple of God's glory, world without end (1 Tim 3:15; John 2:19-22; Eph 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:9-11,20-21; 5:30-32; 2 Cor 6:16; 1 Cor 12:12-27; Heb 12:22-24). This holy people is commissioned to heal the nations, establish righteousness, subdue kingdoms, and dispense the wisdom of God forever (Rev 22:2; 2 Cor 5:18-20; Heb 11:33; Matt 5:13-16; 16:18-19; Eph 3:10-11,21).

Scripture teaches the eternal blessedness of the saved (John 4:14; 5:24; Eph 2:7) and the eternal punishment of the wicked (John 5:28-29; Rev 20:10,15; Matt 25:41,46).

Israel, National Israel was resurrected from Hades, but the Parousia was an event more grandiose that merely the resurrection of the Dead, from Death and Hades, and from the Sea (Which are "2"non-corporeal entities being resurrected, and cannot just be just "Israel" alone), in which this very Parousia was a corporate indwelling of God of the true body, the true church, of Jew and Gentile, Rev 21:3,9,23; Eph 3:6,17,19,21; Eph 4:24; Eph 5:32)

There is no ongoing prophetic word to be fulfilled, because all has been fulfilled. No one I know in Full Preterism really argues with that, but what we do argue with Hyper Preterists, is that there is no salvation post 70 AD, when in fact the scriptures of the New testament speaks not just for national Israel, and their resurrection, but of the resurrection of the dead ones, the Gentile World and Israel, and the Parousia, the marriage, between the living and dead church and Christ, which occurs as ongoing in each individual, which is not prophetic in any way, but is a continual result of what was already completed and fulfilled in the Parousia itself.

So you see, yes, Christ the King Potentate handed over the kingdom to God after the marital consummation of the church and Christ, the Parousia, but lest we forget, that Christ....is God.

Rev 22:1 and He handed it over.......to Himself....and the gates of our Heavenly church within all of our hearts, where Rev 21:6 flows freely and the Rev 21:25 never shut, for the continual result of salvation of each individual devoid of Eph 2:14 from the definitive fulfillment of all the work that was foreordained and ordained by our Isa 9:6....who is all three and who is ONE.

So if you think you are a Preterist, but yet hold to the beliefs of UR, then you are not a Preterist, Full or Hyper.
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:41 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,937,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
For those that feel Preterism leads to Universalism:....
Com'on man....We welcomed you back with open arms and now you're going to lay a real bummer on us UR's... LOL
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:11 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,897 posts, read 3,699,863 times
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,528,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Com'on man....We welcomed you back with open arms and now you're going to lay a real bummer on us UR's... LOL
NO just to preterist URers.. like me

I am full preterist who believes that Jesus washes away ALL sin for ALL people and it was done in the 1st century. All of revelation applies to the time period of 70 AD and beyond that are the covenant promises of Jer. 31.

So Jesus saved ALL men which began the New Covenant of Salvation for ALL men.
"everyone will die for his own sin;"
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
“For I will forgive their wickednessand will remember their sins no more.”



The new covenant... that is what we are in now. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.



Anyway.. thought I'd get that out there because to me the relationship between preterism and universalism is so perfect. God wanted to save all men and he did.. in the first century.


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Old 02-26-2010, 12:56 AM
 
63,809 posts, read 40,087,129 times
Reputation: 7871
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
NO just to preterist URers.. like me

I am full preterist who believes that Jesus washes away ALL sin for ALL people and it was done in the 1st century. All of revelation applies to the time period of 70 AD and beyond that are the covenant promises of Jer. 31.

So Jesus saved ALL men which began the New Covenant of Salvation for ALL men.
"everyone will die for his own sin;"
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
“For I will forgive their wickednessand will remember their sins no more.”

The new covenant... that is what we are in now. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Anyway.. thought I'd get that out there because to me the relationship between preterism and universalism is so perfect. God wanted to save all men and he did.. in the first century.
Amen. It is a done deal. "It is finished."
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:06 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,937,610 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
NO just to preterist URers.. like me

I am full preterist who believes that Jesus washes away ALL sin for ALL people and it was done in the 1st century. All of revelation applies to the time period of 70 AD and beyond that are the covenant promises of Jer. 31.

So Jesus saved ALL men which began the New Covenant of Salvation for ALL men.
"everyone will die for his own sin;"
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
“For I will forgive their wickednessand will remember their sins no more.”



The new covenant... that is what we are in now. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.



Anyway.. thought I'd get that out there because to me the relationship between preterism and universalism is so perfect. God wanted to save all men and he did.. in the first century.


I'm with you on the redemption part. Justification occurs objectively for all, in time, at the cross. Or are you saying in 70 AD? I'm not sure I'm following here.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:16 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,937,610 times
Reputation: 336
Preterism has me confused somewhat with regards to the 70 AD issue. I understand it's teaching that Christ came back at that time, but how does that time line impact our redemption in Christ that happened at the cross?
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:19 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,937,610 times
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I'll follow up with guys tomorrow. Night all!
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:23 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,897 posts, read 3,699,863 times
Reputation: 1130
Kat

I agree with you in that I am seeing the relationship between universal salvation and preterism.

A verse I keep going back to is this one

1Pe 4:6 For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."

There is a separation between the judgment and the wages of sin which is death and the gift of God -- through Jesus --- resurrection from the dead.



Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging."

So for a preterist 70AD was this judgment? Do you think that Jesus was talking about 70AD only or 70AD and then everyone after that at their death is judged.

The futurist think that this refers to a final future resurrection and judgment.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:24 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,897 posts, read 3,699,863 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I'll follow up with guys tomorrow. Night all!
Nite alabama, sweet dreams.
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