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Your question has been answered. Your wishes, or my wishes don't change God's will. The difference between you and I is that you have decided that God's will, as clearly explained in the Bible, is unacceptable, and therefore you choose to not believe it. You claim that one does not need to believe in Christ while living on earth, and you say all people are, or will be saved after death.
Yes, and the bible teaches that they will ...
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God wishes everyone would come to him, but he always knew everyone will not. Humans were given free will to choose either way, so some will choose for and some against. He wants you to turn from your wicked ways and live. Sovereign God could force everyone to salvation as you see it, but Bible clearly says that it not his plan.
So what you are saying is that God has pipe dreams? He wants what he cannot have? That he is not powerful enough to give man free will and still manage to save all mankind, one way or another? Please point out where in scripture we are told that God gives man free will and prefers mans will to his own? Please point out in scripture where it says that God will not accomplish what he desires? According to scripture as far as I understand it, the word of god accomplishes all his desires and he works out his plan according to his own counsel. That his will is done on earth as in heaven, and not mans. That he is the potter and man the clay, that he fashions some to honor and some to dishonor ... That he hardens hearts as stone and makes them soft as flesh. That it is he that gives repentance and faith and that it is he that works in us to will and do his good pleasure.
As far as i can see what you are teaching has no scriptural basis ...
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"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. - Ezekiel 18:23
I don't want you to die, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn back and live!
-Ezekiel 18:32
Dying and being tormented in hell for ever are completely different things. In the old testament Gods judgment was an earthly affair, having nothing to do with an after life or everlasting torture. If people did Good then God rewarded them with earthly blessings, if they did no Good then he would curse them in the efforts and bring the works to naught and eventually allow them to be enslaved or killed by their enemies.
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Why would he ask people to turn back and live, if they were going to live no matter what?
Maybe you should study a little on "anthropomorphism" and "athorpopathism" if you have the time.
Why did God command Israel to repent, when he was the one who blinded their eyes so that they should not see, and deafened their ears so that that should not hear? Why did Jesus speak in parables so that the Israelites in hearing would not understand and realize that he was the messiah and turn and repent when he was commanding them to repent? Why did jesus Pray God forgive the Pharisees who had him murder if he knows that god will not forgive them?
Enough has been quoted from NT to prove that belief if a requirement. If you didn't believe before, you won't believe if the verses were posted again.
I did believe that before, until I was 43 years old, but then when I truly sought after God because I wanted to know what it was I was supposed to be doing to prevent people from going to hell, and I honestly wanted to know who He was in light of both love and hell, He began to open my eyes, mind, and heart so that I could finally see the truth of who He is.
The evangelical ETer is like the workers who worked all day in the vineyard. At the last hour the Lord of the vineyard hired more workers. At the end of the day the Lord of the vineyard paid the workers who worked one hour as much as those who worked all day in the heat of the sun. The workers who worked all day complained to the Lord about this. And what did the Lord of the vineyard say?
Ah, and what if those of the nations don't work at all in His vineyard and He gives to them what the workers worked all their lives get? Is it fair? Not according to the evangelical ETers.
Then those that never entered the vineyard to work would not get paid at all. There would be no point in going into the vineyard. It is not that hard to imagine that it would be to the person's shame for paying to those that worked not at all. Jesus gave the basis for which the owner of the vineyard agreed to pay. The argument is that new believers that have just been saved will receive the same as those that had believed all their lives: eternal life: those that are ready and received into the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as the chaste bride were also noted as the first shall be last and the last shall be first in that the eternal glory will be the same for all that has been received to the marriage supper for that glory will go to the Lord as they are His crowning achievements and why they would cast their crowns at His feet.
We have those that believed and went astray as the foolish virgins and the prodigal son living the wild life as being left behind, giving up their first inheritance and thus missing out of the first fruit of the resurrection. The elder son compalined about the prodiagl son returning, but the father reminded him that all that he has was his, which is not the same for the prodigal son, but the fact that he is son still, shows why the prodigal son will be returning for he had been bought with a price and sealed as His which is the glory of God in salvation in Christ Jesus as how those vessels unto dishonour in God's House is shown to His glory and power in the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.. simply for believing in Him.. even in His name.
Those that do not believe are those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Jesus to be reproved of them.
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God is now saving those who do not work but just believe.
All will obviously believe one day for all will be saved.
There must be after-death or post-mortum salvation because 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 says there is.
The devil and his angels believe, but still, the lake of fire is reserved for them which is the second death. One would think that after being defeated and thrown in the pit for a 1000 years, the devil would wise up, but no. The devil prefers to do evil and that is why God would not draw those that prefer their evil deeds over Him to the Son to be saved. God knows they do not want to be saved from their sins in having that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
Do all those that hear the Gospel believe? No.
Granted, lies can make someone not believe, but God has made the promise that all those that seek, shall find, and He knows those that would receive Him from those that prefer their evil deeds over Him. So those that would believe, will believe eventually in this life on earth as the will of God in salvation can only be received now; for after death, comes judgmnt as the wages of sin is death, and thus to be saved from our bondage to sin and to death is to call on Jesus Christ now.
And since death will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire, then that means, no one is coming out of this second death because death is never coming back.
I did believe that before, until I was 43 years old, but then when I truly sought after God because I wanted to know what it was I was supposed to be doing to prevent people from going to hell, and I honestly wanted to know who He was in light of both love and hell, He began to open my eyes, mind, and heart so that I could finally see the truth of who He is.
"Requirement" is an interesting way to put it.
It is interesting to note that the doctrine of UR is accepted mainly by elders of the church. Almost all the Christian Universalists i know are 20 + year believers who have only come to the knowledge of this truth in the later years of their faith. I find that very interesting ...
So what you are saying is that God has pipe dreams? He wants what he cannot have? That he is not powerful enough to give man free will and still manage to save all mankind, one way or another?
When God created Lucifer, he surely wished he would serve and worship him forever. What happened? Was is another 'pipe dream'?
Your questions have been answered often enough, and you always return to ask them again as if they had never been answered. You can take the horse to the water, but you can't force him to drink.
Matthew 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
John 3:3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 03-08-2010 at 11:48 AM..
When God created Lucifer, he surely wished he would serve and worship him forever. What happened? Was is another 'pipe dream'?
Your questions have been answered often enough, and you always return to ask then again as if they had never been answered. You can take the horse to the water, but you can't force him to drink.
Matthew 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
John 3:3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again
The name "Lucifer" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "halal" for "howl."
Isa 14:12 How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations!" The king in Isaiah 14 was a man or human (14:16) while Satan is a spirit being. He also died (14:19).
Your quotation of Matthew 7:13 and John 3:3 in no way disproves that God will save all because Christ ransomed all (1 Tim.2:4-6). The same Jesus who said those words of the verses you quote is the same Jesus who told Paul the words of God saving all because He ransomed all. So all the scriptures are true in their own time frame!
Then those that never entered the vineyard to work would not get paid at all. There would be no point in going into the vineyard. It is not that hard to imagine that it would be to the person's shame for paying to those that worked not at all. Jesus gave the basis for which the owner of the vineyard agreed to pay. The argument is that new believers that have just been saved will receive the same as those that had believed all their lives: eternal life: those that are ready and received into the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as the chaste bride were also noted as the first shall be last and the last shall be first in that the eternal glory will be the same for all that has been received to the marriage supper for that glory will go to the Lord as they are His crowning achievements and why they would cast their crowns at His feet.
We have those that believed and went astray as the foolish virgins and the prodigal son living the wild life as being left behind, giving up their first inheritance and thus missing out of the first fruit of the resurrection. The elder son compalined about the prodiagl son returning, but the father reminded him that all that he has was his, which is not the same for the prodigal son, but the fact that he is son still, shows why the prodigal son will be returning for he had been bought with a price and sealed as His which is the glory of God in salvation in Christ Jesus as how those vessels unto dishonour in God's House is shown to His glory and power in the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.. simply for believing in Him.. even in His name.
Those that do not believe are those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Jesus to be reproved of them.
The devil and his angels believe, but still, the lake of fire is reserved for them which is the second death. One would think that after being defeated and thrown in the pit for a 1000 years, the devil would wise up, but no. The devil prefers to do evil and that is why God would not draw those that prefer their evil deeds over Him to the Son to be saved. God knows they do not want to be saved from their sins in having that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
Do all those that hear the Gospel believe? No.
Granted, lies can make someone not believe, but God has made the promise that all those that seek, shall find, and He knows those that would receive Him from those that prefer their evil deeds over Him. So those that would believe, will believe eventually in this life on earth as the will of God in salvation can only be received now; for after death, comes judgmnt as the wages of sin is death, and thus to be saved from our bondage to sin and to death is to call on Jesus Christ now.
And since death will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire, then that means, no one is coming out of this second death because death is never coming back.
Your wrote ...
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And since death will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire, then that means, no one is coming out of this second death because death is never coming back.
It is not only death that is cast into the lake of fire, Hades is as well after it gives up all the dead in it ... Hades is the realm of the dead, so the second death cannot be everlasting if because that would make Hades everlasting. the second death is the death of death and the realm of death altogether. So it is written ... "As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive"(1Cr 15:22) ... And ... By the offense of one came condemnation on all men, so by the righteousness of one justification unto life comes to all men"(1Cr 15:22) ... and again ... "Where ever sin did abound, Grace did much more abound"(Rom 5:20). So if what you are saying is in fact true, then Paul is a liar ... Because if what you say is true then Sin and death do in fact much more abound than grace.
When God created Lucifer, he surely wished he would serve and worship him forever. What happened? Was is another 'pipe dream'?
Again, where does it say God wished that Lucifer would worship him forever? In fact where does it say that Lucifer no longer worships him? According to the scriptures the fallen angels do still worship the lord when in his presence as did legion ...
Mar 5:6
"But when he(legion) saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him"
What power has Lucifer, if it is not given him by God? And how does Lucifer retain his power if it is not according to the purpose of God? That is what i asked you, you are the one who is saying that god wants what he cannot have.
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Your questions have been answered often enough, and you always return to ask then again as if they had never been answered. You can take the horse to the water, but you can't force him to drink.
My questions in regard these things have never been answered by scripture. You keep making claims which do not have any support by scripture. Such as God cannot have what he wants, and that his word cannot accomplish his desire. You are saying God is impotent, and that mans will is greater than gods will, that god prefers mans will to his own. And that he will let man get what he want even if it means that God will not get what he wants, and even if it means the eternal torture of mankind whom God loves which would in fact be everlasting torture for God if he truly does love them.
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Matthew 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
And of course Christ was speaking to the Israelis whom God had blinded so that they could not find the narrow gate, and they were in fact destroyed because of it in 70 AD, yet Paul tells us in Romans 11 that there being so destroyed(cut off) was so that god could have mercy on all people,a nd that all Israel would eventually be saved even though God had concluded them in unbelief. Again you misinterpret Christs words and you miss the point of God plan and purpose for the ages altogether ...
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John 3:3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again
That is right, no one can believe unless the are regenerated first by the holy spirit. So all the people who do not believe in fact do not believe only because they cannot believe, not because they chose not to believe. As it is written ...
Rom 8:20 "Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope"(NIV)
"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope"(NLT)
"because the creation has become subject to futility, though not by anything it did. The one who subjected it did so in the certainty"(ISV)
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"(KJV)
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 03-08-2010 at 11:56 AM..
The name "Lucifer" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "halal" for "howl."
You don't know who I am referring to?
I am talking about SATAN.
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