Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What is your response to Jesus talking about the final judgment in Matthew 25?
Matthew 25: 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'"
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Also, your response to Hebrews 10:26-29
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sacrificed him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge, I will replay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Last edited by CantWait2Leave; 03-12-2010 at 03:01 AM..
1) Where do you think believers will have eternal life? Where do you think nonbelievers will not have eternal life?
2) We've already addressed (in John 3:36) that nonbelievers don't have eternal life. You agreed with this, so how can you say that everyone is saved? THEY DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
3) Right, he is the potter. He can do whatever He wants, but He doesn't go back on what He says. Go back to #2. He isn't going to change because he said that unbelievers do not have eternal life in John 3:36 or do you think he's lying?
4) Heb 8:10 is speaking about the New Covenant making it possible for all people to have personal intimacy with God. Under the OC, very few people were able to relate to him in a personal way.
#4 IS eternal life.... how can you have "LIFE" when you are dead? Eternal life is not salvation which is why I asked for your definition of salvation. God does not say he won't save some....
And because you say he won't change (yet I say you are mistaken about him originally) then of course he can't fulfill his own will... and the very purpose Jesus was sent to save the lost, the world... never actually happens... so sad.
As I said. You have no interest in truth. But others may find the information in the links that I provided of interest. It is of interest also that you don't believe in heaven, or Satan, or angels in general as literal beings. And you are also a preterist. And oh yes. You don't believe that Jesus Christ is God.
And you forgot that I don't believe in a rapture or the trinity or the tooth fairy.
The truth is I have never gotten a straight answer from you as to why the lake of fire is literal... and how gehenna is literally Valley of Hinnom... a real place. Yet you say it is the lake of fire when I can clearly go there and see it is not.
If you truly felt you were right and I am on a path to hell... why so callous? Is believing YOUR way so very important to you? Or is believing God's way? I think it's worth considering my views as I have considered yours for over 20 years.
What is your response to Jesus talking about the final judgment in Matthew 25?
Matthew 25: 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'"
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Also, your response to Hebrews 10:26-29
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sacrificed him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge, I will replay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Cantwait2leave, I'm a universalist and the understanding is clear to me that if if we don't repent that we will reap what we sow. But let's put this into perspective, when our Lord separates at Judgement, He is separating Goats and Sheep. Did you get that? (GOATS and SHEEP). He isn't separating SWINE and SHEEP. SWINE is an UNCLEAN Animal. GOATS are a CLEAN animal acceptable for sacrifice. Also, consider the parable of the unforgiving servant. That servant had to PAY the price and was forced to. But for HOW LONG? - read the parable - at the end you will see how long and it may come as a surprise to you. Let's look at the last verse you quoted:
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
The word for "eternal" there is aionios. It refers to a continuing point. In other words it is like this:
The then will go away to age-enduring curtailment but the righteous into age-enduring life.
Furthermore the word Kolasis (interpreted punishment) is a curtailment. If God is trying to curtail something then if it was eternal (never ending) it would never reach the point at which it actually curtailed.
Also, ETERNAL doesn't mean JUST forevermore. It means to HAVE ALWAYS BEEN. So that would mean that the punishment ALWAYS was if indeed Eternal was the correct translation (which is obviously isn't and many Bibles do not translated it as a result).
What is your response to Jesus talking about the final judgment in Matthew 25?
Matthew 25: 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'"
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Had Jesus wanted His listeners to know the punishment and life the NATIONS would get He would have used the Greek word "aperantos" for "unending" or "eternal." Rather, He used "AIONIOS" which is an adjective describing the punishment or the life being "pertaining to the AION" or to the eon.
Surely you don't think Jesus is going to give eternal life to a nation called "The United States of America" if that nation gives a cup of water to one of Christ's brethren during their great tribulation.
He is not asking these Nations if they had faith in HIM but is telling these NATIONS this or that concerning their treatment of His brethren.
So the good nations enjoy the life of the millennial kingdom for that age/eon and the bad nations get chastized for that age/eon.
Quote:
Also, your response to Hebrews 10:26-29
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sacrificed him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge, I will replay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
"Christ's sacrifice will never be repeated. Those who reject it will receive "judgment and fiery indignation" (Heb.10:26-31[7][8][10}). They fall into the hands of the living God. But there is no indication that their judgment will be endless. Like millions more, they will be disciplined. The same God Who wrote Hebrews, and has told us of their offense, also wrote Timothy, and tells us of their subsequent salvation. (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.24,p.87).
Mike, they will not listen to the truth even though it is right in front of their eyes.
Jesus said that they should destroy their souls in Matthew 10:28?? Are we reading the same thing as him? It's talking about fearing our Lord. It's very straightforward.
Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:36 is extremely straightforward as well. Believe and you'll have everlasting life. Don't believe and you won't.
Yes the truth had been posted here in many different threads and yet they are still blinded by the devil.
Matthew 7: 6 "Don't give what is holy to unholy people. Don't give pearls to swine! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you".
It is futile to try and teach holy concepts to people who refuse to listen and only want to tear apart what we say.
Mike do you believe that God has a purpose for everything He does?
If so, then does it not make sense that God has a purpose for/in Apollumi/destruction?
When one is fitted to destruction, one is being made as one ought to be made, and that is according to God Himself, in His image and likeness. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness….
Are not the the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie in destruction that are outside the gates of the city allowed to enter into the city and drink of the water of life freely?
Do not those scriptures pertain to after the judgment by God is passed?
Sure they do.
So how is it that those dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie are allowed to enter the gates and drink of the water of life freely?
Because Gods purpose in the fire is to burn away all the dross in man (burn away all that the old man is), that when they are tried they will come forth as gold. For our God is a consuming fire.
Listen Mike, your belief that people will go into eternal torment because of their disobedience to God is correct. You can post all the scriptures you want and I will agree with them and likely your understanding of them concerning this area. (I differ in my understanding of Gods method of saving all from many of my bro/sis who believe like me in the restitution of all things) We would also most likely both agree that scripture cannot contradict scripture.
Let’s look at a couple of scriptures that SEEM to contradict each other
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
According to this scripture, there are some who go into eternal punishment and some who go into life eternal.
Yet this scripture (Below) states Jesus is the savior of ALL men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.
These scriptures on the surface are warring scriptures, and both Universalist and those who believe in eternal torment have used them to wage war on each other.
But Mike there is no contradiction, those who disobey God will most assuredly find themselves in DEATH in the age to come and those who are righteous will most assuredly find themselves in life in the age to come.
So how can God then be the savior of all men?
Because brother God has a purpose in the fire and that purpose is to destroy the old man that the scripture can be fulfilled that He is the savior of all men.
The only error in the eternal torment doctrine is the error of what the scriptures are talking about when they refer to eternal. Eternal does not mean without beginning and without end Mike, and scripture bear this out.
Titus 1:2
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
The word world here is aionios/eternal the same aionios/eternal that is used in the beginning of this scripture in hope of aionios/eternal life.
Thus showing that aionios/eternal has a beginning.
So Mike if eternal has a beginning how can people believe it means without beginning and without end?
Matthew 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The word world here is aion/eternal, thus showing that there is an end to the aion/eternal
These two scriptures show us the error of understanding aion/eternal and aionios/eternal to mean without beginning and without end.
Mike there will be an end to the eternal torment and an end to eternal life.
To understand that statement please take the time to read this link from my blog (it is NOT a long read)
If you are still with me, let’s look at a few scriptures from the way you understand the meaning of eternal, that being without beginning and without end.
Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Now if we are to understand these scriptures from an ET”S perspective then it is Jesus’ presence that brings the eternal torment to the people.
Mike do you honestly believe that Jesus would be the catalyst to such a torment?
Have you ever watched the move Schindler”s List?
If so, do you remember the ending when Schindler broke down because he believed he should have done more to save more Jews?
Schindler was in TORMENT because he could not save all the Jews.
How much more do you suppose our kind and loving savior would be TORMENTED watching people burn eternally and not only watching but being the catalyst of the TORMENT?
Mike Jesus came to seek and to save that which was LOST.
Matthew 18:11-14
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Also read Lu.15:1-10
Mike who is it that SUFFERS the loss if the sheep or piece of silver is NOT found?
Is it not Christ that SUFFERS the loss?
Do you really believe Christ will or is even able to lose anything?
And you forgot that I don't believe in a rapture or the trinity or the tooth fairy.
The truth is I have never gotten a straight answer from you as to why the lake of fire is literal... and how gehenna is literally Valley of Hinnom... a real place. Yet you say it is the lake of fire when I can clearly go there and see it is not.
If you truly felt you were right and I am on a path to hell... why so callous? Is believing YOUR way so very important to you? Or is believing God's way? I think it's worth considering my views as I have considered yours for over 20 years.
Your views are completely contrary to the word of God.
Gehenna is a synonym for the lake of fire. One that Jesus used a number of times. I never said that the trash heap outside of Jerusalem is the lake of fire. That is more twisting of the facts that you constantly do.
Matthew 10:28 'And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell--geenne-gehenna-the lake of fire.'
So that you understand, the Greek uses the word geenne-gehenna and which has been translated as hell in English translations such as the NASV and KJV. Youngs Literal Translation keeps it as gehenna.
God can destroy, which does not mean a cessation of existence but to utterly ruin, to render useless, the soul in gehenna-the lake of fire-hell. The word Gehenna is a synonym for the actual lake of fire. Jesus did not say to fear Him who can destroy the soul in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. He was referring to the actual lake of fire. Do you now get it?
One more time. The word Gehenna is a SYNONYM for the actual lake of fire.
Definition of the word Synonym: 1) A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a lanquage. 2) A word or an expression that serves as a symbolic or figurative subsitute for another.
In describing the lake of fire to the Jews, Jesus used the trash heap outside of Jerusalem which is called Gehenna, as a picture of the actual lake of fire so that the Jews could have some understanding of the terrible nature of the place.
The issue is do you believe the word of God? You do not. You just equated the Bible with the tooth fairy.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
