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Ain't that swell. Tell them, just so that they know that they are saved no matter what. Again, it sounds purposeless to me.
That's what most (non-Roman Catholic) preachers of ET say. "No matter what sins you may have comitted, Jesus loves and forgives you."
I met a man who believed Jesus died for his sins, no matter what they were or are; so, he had sexual relations with a different woman every couple of weeks. His behavior, according to you, proves the simple gospel of the grace of God "purposeless." That is the word you used.
The gospel can be mis-apprehended regardless of the preachers understanding of the extent of God's intention in applying it.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
The Bible has a different reason, It says you should preach the word, because without it, people are condemned. This is a key difference, and a core belief which you omit from your religion.
Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned
I believe that we are condemned to sin and death until "the entrance of [God's] Word giveth light." There is a big differance between that and ceaseless torture for ever. When we believers, followers of "the Way," Who knows how far any of us will go, to what we might attain in believing the gospel! Paul believed it possible to come to where you didn't even die () Phil 3.) The principle difference between Eternal Torture advocates and those holding to Universal Salvation may be reduced to differing eschatological views regarding the more distant future. That is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned
The gospel is NOT the worst possible news you can imagine. ( It is clearly stated what "the gospel" is in 1 Co 15:1-4) The gospel is GOOD news. God knows "before the foundation of the earth" who is going to be tortured ceaselessly for ever (according to your tradition.) He told us to, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY creature" (Mk 16:15) That would make us LIARS, if we obeyed the Lord...unless it really is true, Jesus is "the Savior of all," as the Bible calls Him. If we preach good news to whom God knows the only truth for them is the worst possible imaginable we are liars, and God told us to lie? The gospel is NOT the worst possible news you can imagine. ( It is clearly stated what "the gospel" is in 1 Co 15:1-4) The gospel is GOOD news. God knows "before the foundation of the earth" who is going to be tortured ceaselessly for ever (according to your tradition.) He told us to, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY creature" (Mk 16:15) That would make us LIARS, if we obeyed the Lord...unless it really is true, Jesus is "the Savior of all," as the Bible calls Him. If we preach good news to whom God knows the only truth for them is the worst possible imaginable we are liars, and God told us to lie?
As for what many are indoctrinated to see in words like" judge" or "condemn," a flaming ceaseless torture, they see a lie that turns God's GOOD Word into a hateful travesty. "Judge" means, "to set things right." And, an excellent example from the Bible, which is what does it for me, is the Israelites who went prostituting themselves after other gods. After spurning God's prophetic ministry to them repeatedly, they were "condemned" to be killed and taken away captive into Babylon where most of them assimilated into that pagan culture. Only one out of seven of the priests returned. This captivity worked. As a people, they never took up other gods to worship them again.
No, I am not, but thanks for sharing your opinion on what I think.
Well, my opinion of what you think was based on what you said here:
Quote:
The Bible has a different reason, It says you should preach the word, because without it, people are condemned. This is a key difference, and a core belief which you omit from your religion.
That's really not the reason for having salvation and eternal life.
The principal reason the Gospel is proclaimed is for all to be saved so that they can know God and Christ:
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The UR crowd here has been trying to convince everyone that every sinner will be saved even after death.
Revelation? Revelation says that if your name is not found in the book of life, you are thrown in the lake of fire. You perish, just like it said in John 3:16.
If you care to inspect the passage in Rev 20:15 that you refer to, you will notice it doesn't say if anyone by this time was found or not. You have to add to what is Written in order to answer that, "if."
It is actually Jesus Himself Who says, "...I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: [26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn 11:25-26, AV)Very many people do not believe what Jesus says here. They add the word "spiritual" to modify what He said. This change of the Word of God into a word of men is important for them to maintain the lying crutch that death determines destiny. They try to explain away the passages that teach God isn't finished with you just because you die. It is a lie to say Jesus loves you -- until you die! Additionally, most are lied to about the purpose of God in salvation. It is not a better place in death. It is victory over death! This was the one thing Paul was pressing into attaining, to never die! (Phil 3) "Awake out of slumber, you who sleep; and, Christ will give you light!"
That's what most (non-Roman Catholic) preachers of ET say. "No matter what sins you may have comitted, Jesus loves and forgives you."
Yes, that is their idea of repenting.
Quote:
I met a man who believed Jesus died for his sins, no matter what they were or are; so, he had sexual relations with a different woman every couple of weeks. His behavior, according to you, proves the simple gospel of the grace of God "purposeless." That is the word you used.
Yes, you tell him not to worry because he is saved no matter what, and he will continue to do what he does.
Good we agree on something, now see if you can find the word eternal in YLT of the bible.
it not there, so all your points about people being eterally torment become moot according to the bible
When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.
Although the basic root of 'aion' means age, not all words which are from that root mean a finite duration of time. The phrase 'ages of the ages' refers to an unlimited duration of time especially with an eye toward the future-as in forever, always, eternally, forever and ever.
Aion when used as an adjective (aionios) means eternal or forever. It is seen in the following passages that eternity is in view.
Luke 1:33 ''and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever.'' (eis tous aionios--into the eons).
Matt 6:13 '...for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever (eis tous aionios--into the eons).
Luke 1:55 'To Abraham and his offspring forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).
John 6:51 'if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever (eis ton aiona--into the eon).
Now regarding the phrase forever and ever...
Forever and ever--aionas ton aionon--ages of the ages.
I Tim 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 5:13; Heb. 13:21; Rev. 4:9-10; Gal. 1:5; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 4:20; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 7:12; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 15:7; Rev. 22:5; Heb. 1:8. In all these passages aionas ton aionon means forever and ever.
And in like manner, when speaking of eternal condemnation the same phrase is used in Rev.19:3; Rev. 20:10; and Rev. 14:11.
Rev. 19:3 'HALLELUJAH! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.' (The judgment of Babylon mentioned here is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked)
Rev. 20:10 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
Rev. 14:11 'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.'
Now. The Greek language uses repetition for emphasis.
Aionas ton aionon is literally forever and ever in English. This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''...To whom be the glory forever and ever---eis tous aionas ton aionon.
The same phrase is used in
Phil 4:20 (God the Father);
2 Tim 4:18; Heb 13:21; 1 Tim 1:17; Heb. 1:8; 1 Pet.4:11; 1 Pet. 5:11; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 1:18; Rev. 4:9,10; Rev. 10:6; Rev. 15:7 (concerning Jesus Christ).
Rev. 5:13 ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever
Rev. 22:3,5 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.
In all those verses, aionas ton aionon refers to things that will last forever and ever. In addition to aionas ton aionon refering to the eternal reign of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, the very same phrase--aionas ton aionon is used to speak of eternal torment and punishment in Rev 19:3 and Rev. 20:10
Now regarding Matt 25:46 which speaks of eternal punishment...
Matt 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment--EIS KOLASIN AIONION, but the righteous into eternal life--EIS ZOEN AIONION. This verse shows the contrast between the life of the righteous and the punishment of the accursed. The righteous go into eternal life and therefore the accursed go into eternal punishment.
And finally...John 3:36 shows the same contrast. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
Those who say this is not eternal are ignoring the contrast and the context of the verse.
Well, my opinion of what you think was based on what you said here:
That's really not the reason for having salvation and eternal life.
You are mixing two completely different issues. I was talking about why Christ sent the apostles to preach the word of God. It was to preach to people so they would believe in Christ and through that belief have eternal life and not perish.
Yes, you tell him not to worry because he is saved no matter what, and he will continue to do what he does.
You lie about me. I tell him about the chastening of the Lord, which can be grievous indeed. It is not limited to this life either. Nor is it reaching only into conditions in death. To attain to a better resurrection is something I teach. Your lies used to create a strawman easier to pretend you have bested us in an argument is blatantly obvious. Persistance in such sin puts you in a position for a bit of chastening yourself, at least according to the Lord I follow.
When the word of God says eternal, it means eternal. As is shown below.
. . . omit . . .
Eternal means eternal.
You've been answered concerning this so many times in the last couple of years I've been around here I'd hate to count them. Of course, as you've said to me several time, "I don't bother to read your posts because you're deceived;" so, you illustrate your ignorance to those who have studied the matter with posts like the one above to which I refer.
For at least 500 years before Christ to at least 500 years following, the word "eon" in its various forms, "eon," "eons," and, the adjective, "eonian" (Grk.: "eonios,") was never used for for something "eternal." For a sense of "never-ending" it was modified with other words, "aidios" is one. Only as the evil concept of ceaseless torture for ever began to gain popularity in the Dark ages when there was very little knowledge and the original Greek version of Scripture was lost in the western Roman Catholic world did the word "eon" as represented in the Latin Version of Jerome begin to be claimed to mean "eternal." "Eternal" itself came from the Latin "aeternitas" which originally simply meant a long period of time." To say that the Bible means what it says in English, regardless of the original language, is to reveal your ignorance.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 03-14-2010 at 08:33 PM..
"Who" is a question in the midst of the doubters questing word "whosoever."There is no doubt God is telling how EVERYone is saved. John 3:16 does NOT have the word "whosoever" in the original language. As God gave it in Greek it says, "EVERY." For good English we might say "EVERYone." What it means is that:
"Thus God is loving the (entire) world, that He gives His only begotten son so EVERYone (which is who, by) believing into Him will not be perishing, but be having life(to the extent it is manifested) in this period of time.
For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him." (Jn 3:16-17)
Readers may simply refer back to post #469 to see what I posted regarding John 3:16.
All who wish may simply go here and see the orginal language and the transliteration.
You would have others believe that you know better how to translate the verse than all the various men who have been trained in translating. Who know the orginal lanquages.
You would turn the word of God into a lie. The passage is clear in its meaning.
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.'
The passage both in the Greek and in any translation you want to check shows that only those who believe in Christ shall not perish. The verse does not say or mean the opposite of what it says as you claim it does.
You are mixing two completely different issues. I was talking about why Christ sent the apostles to preach the word of God. It was to preach to people so they would believe in Christ and through that belief have eternal life and not perish.
Yes,.....I got that part. But you've not really addressed my answer to you. Having eternal life is not about escaping hell, it's about knowing God and Christ. That's why the Gospel is proclaimed.
IOW, if you've escaped hell (what you call a literal fire), but do not know God and Christ, you've not changed your condition.
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