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Saying that UR believers don't think people need Christ is like saying that non-UR believers don't think people need Christ anymore after they get saved. The main difference in UR and most mainstream denominations is this:
UR believes Jesus is ALL we need for salvation. It was His sacrifice that took away the sins of the world when his work was finished on the cross.
If UR is true, you don't have to believe anything. Period. All people will be saved whether they believe or not. If you die as an unbeliever, worry not, because you will be forced to believe after death, and through that belief you will be saved. That is the core belief of UR, and Satan's favorite lie: that you don't need Christ.
No, God won't force you to take it. It will be offered to you, but many will refuse.
do you believe in annihilation or everlasting conscious punishment?, if the later, doesn't it seem illogically to you, that God won't force people into heaven, but will force people instead to life eternally burning?
if God does not force people into heaven, why should He force people even to exist?
That's not what I am seeing. UR claims there is salvation post mortem, after some hellfire correction.
The Holy Scripture never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die. Nothing says our death stops God's works. We're in a rather terrible situation, considering the state of most "Christians" when they die, if there is no improvement after death.
Something Jesus did say was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (in John 11:25-26, CLV) He could've used an adjective to indicate He was referring merely to "spiritual" life and death; but, He didn't! Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"
After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Pet 3:18-20, AV) It is definitely taught by God's own word that: "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6, AV)
In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell "for ever" he prayed and God saved him. Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die. The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him." That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 AV) "Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice...I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple." (Jonah 2:1-2, 6-7, AV)
I'll let the Holy Bible be the authority in my life and confession of faith, not the traditions of men, thank you.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 03-06-2010 at 11:44 AM..
God is perfectly capable of saving people after death.
No one says He isn't, but the scriptrues clearly state that such is NOT going to happen. Eternal life, eternal punishment. Second death, and so on. You preach a heresy.
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Really? I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure if you spent even a second analyzing the word 'Lord' you'd see that: "the Messiah is called adoni (my lord), and in every one of its 195 occurrences adoni (my lord) means a superior who is not God. Adonai on the other hand refers exclusively to the one God in all of its 449 occurrences. Adonai is the title of Deity and adoni never designates Deity." Adonai and Adoni (Psalm 110:1)
As for the greek, there is no distinction between the two - κύριος can refer to either God or man.
The Holy Scripture never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die. Nothing says our death stops God's works. We're in a rather terrible situation, considering the state of most "Christians" when they die, if there is no improvement after death.
Those who cannot die are determined by their faith in Christ.
Quote:
Something Jesus did say was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (in John 11:25-26, CLV) He could've used an adjective to indicate He was referring merely to "spiritual" life and death; but, He didn't! Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"
I have meditated on this much. You left out:
I am the resurrection, and the life.
It is spiritual. Nice try. The adjectives here don't determine whether it is spiritual or not, it is the context.
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After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Pet 3:18-20, AV) It is definitely taught by God's own word that: "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6, AV)
When Christ went into Hades, it was for the purpose to DECLARE victory over death. You rewrite the scriptures.
Quote:
In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him. Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die. The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him." That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 AV)
Yes it did. Romans 10:9 read it again.
Secondly, your cross referenec of 2 Cor 5 has nothing to do with what you present. Stay in context Rhodes.
This is the issue with UR, they CANNOT STAY IN CONTEXT....EVER!
The Holy Scripture never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die. Nothing says our death stops God's works. We're in a rather terrible situation, considering the state of most "Christians" when they die, if there is no improvement after death.
That's a very big issue with me, and apparently with God as He demands holiness in His people - but the condition of every Christian who has ever lived falls short of perfection at their time of death, imo. I've known some dear saints who followed hard after Him, but was the work complete in them?
Universalism still makes the claim that Jesus is the only way for salvation and yet there are atheists that use the universalist reconciliation argument to refute that Jesus is the only way
The fallacy is that the speaker here believes man is in control, not God.
God will save all by bringing them to Christ.
God is capable of turning a man's will to do whatever God determines. We see in this thread some think this must means "God would force people into heaven". This thought assumes man is so powerful that he can resist God indefinitely. God has the power... not man.
Let me ask you this: are you "forced" to love your own child? Your own flesh and blood?
When God reveals Himself to a person in all His glory, no one will resist.
God is the one who does the dragging. God is the one who grants people to believe and repent. God is the one who saves. A man will not believe until God grants it to be so. Its all of God.
Sure, but if you reject the gift, then you will perish. That is what the Bible says in countless places.
Perishing is not permanent when it comes to God. God can kill and He can make alive.
Like most of these debates, it always comes down to this:
Either God can't save everyone or He just doesn't want to.
Either God can't save someone who has perished, or He just doesn't want to.
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