A fair question to you fundamentalists (confess, Apostle Paul, religion, mission)

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
What would be the point? They believe everyone is saved whether they believe the Gospel or not. The diciples wasted their time, and died spreading a message which was not not needed by the people. The people were saved with or without it.

All the URs ever do is try convince people they don't need Christ.


URs try to convince people that ALL they need is Christ. Why don't you accuse UR believers of having TOO much faith in Christ instead of none??

NO YOU DO NOT!! All universalists do, as evidenced all over this board, is try and convince people that there is no need to do ANYTHING, much less worry about needing Jesus Christ!

Accuse? No need to accuse, universalists have condemned themselves already.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

What would be the point? They believe everyone is saved whether they believe the Gospel or not. The diciples wasted their time, and died spreading a message which was not not needed by the people. The people were saved with or without it.

All the URs ever do is try convince people they don't need Christ.

Actually that is not true.

Christian Universalism is the belief that ALL are Saved through Jesus Christ and that it is Gods power and might that is the only power in the universe that can accomplish such a feat.

Man while certainly having the ability to make choices has no power to save himself, even such a feat as the carnal mind choosing Christ is not a feat in which man is capable of. The truth is that no one is left out, no one is eternally left to their own devices to figure it out.


There is a lot of discussions that could be of a good nature, however there is a number of people hewre who even after being told they either profess a lie or are believing a lie, ignore that and just repeat the lie as if somehow it then becomes true.


You cannot say that I would tell someone they do not need Christ when I expressely know that they will not be saved without Christ.

If you know of someone specific who is a Christian Universalist that has expressely stated that no one needs Christ now would be the time to demonstrate it, or repent from this lie.



I will say however, that the gospel of BAD NEWS can be ignored and has no bearing on anyones salvation.


If you know someone your talking to and they make an indication to someone they love who you think might be dead now and possibly damned forever then you have no Good News to share with them without making it a self preservation issue of the other person, but the BAD NEWS will still persist. That is why Eternal Damnation is not the GOOD MESSAGE of Jesus Christ.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

NO YOU DO NOT!! All universalists do, as evidenced all over this board, is try and convince people that there is no need to do ANYTHING, much less worry about needing Jesus Christ!

Accuse? No need to accuse, universalists have condemned themselves already.

I do not judge others, and Christ says if you do not judge then you will not be judged. I do not condemn others, and Christ said if you do not condemn others then you will not be condemned. He also said if you do judge others, that you will be judged in the manner that you judge. And if you do condemn others, you will be condemned.

I will believe Jesus instead of you. I know that i have nothing to fear, regardless of your fear mongering and threats of condemnation and hell.

I forgive you and i love you despite your hateful words.


God bless ...

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

NO YOU DO NOT!! All universalists do, as evidenced all over this board, is try and convince people that there is no need to do ANYTHING, much less worry about needing Jesus Christ!

Accuse? No need to accuse, universalists have condemned themselves already.

There is nothing my son has to do to be my son. If he sins, hates me, lives a horrible life, he will still be my son. We might not speak for years. His sin will most certainly affect his life and he will live with the consequences. (This is hypothetical. My kids are great!) But he was formed in my womb and he will always be my son. God knit everyone together in their mothers' wombs and nothing will change the fact that he loves each one. That's why he came up with a plan to save them from their sins and that plan was Jesus' sacrifice - nothing else!

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Well you seem to be progressing ... Nevertheless i was responding to DRob4JC so why do you lump yourself together with him when you do not believe the way he does?

And what ever you believe hell to be, do you think that it is pleasant there? Or do you believe people are being tormented there?

People will torment themselves; no different than a mafia hitman who torments himself with all teh people he killed, hell will be a billion times worse because the offense will be against God. The individual will torment themselves thinking how many times they heard the gospel and rejected it, blasphemed God's name etc...........

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Using that verse shows an abstract argument to what I was referring to. Jesus is not a tool used by the Father, salvation is an ongoing dynamic work of Jesus Christ in us as the Father is in Him.

Then say Jesus Christ, why always bring up God the Father?

God commissioned Jesus to be saviour of the world, this is not an act of Christ alone. God work is being done through Christ and that is why all are saved, but all are saved only through Christ.

The bible is for believers because unbelievers would never understand and the bible says as much. I never said anything about eternal damnation. I said God doesn't violate anyone's will. He allows people to choose their fate.

I see what your saying, however, then the issue is if eternal damnation is not attached to any of mans choices.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Exactly.

NO YOU DO NOT!! All universalists do, as evidenced all over this board, is try and convince people that there is no need to do ANYTHING, much less worry about needing Jesus Christ!

Accuse? No need to accuse, universalists have condemned themselves already.

You are wrong, Ilene. You misstate what UR is saying. It excuses nothing, allows nothing, and does not presume there will be no CONSEQUENCES for an evil life. It merely acknowledges the true nature of God and His unconditional love for us ALL. God has provided a way . . . Jesus and He doesn't NEED to get the credit for it. Jesus has ALREADY saved us ALL. None of that excuses us for the consequences of our choices in life. They are a separate issue and will be dealt with for each individual by "refinement"(unbelievers) or "grace" (believers in Christ . . . the "especially" or "elect" ones.)

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

Actually that is not true.

Christian Universalism is the belief that ALL are Saved through Jesus Christ and that it is Gods power and might that is the only power in the universe that can accomplish such a feat.

Man while certainly having the ability to make choices has no power to save himself, even such a feat as the carnal mind choosing Christ is not a feat in which man is capable of. The truth is that no one is left out, no one is eternally left to their own devices to figure it out.


There is a lot of discussions that could be of a good nature, however there is a number of people hewre who even after being told they either profess a lie or are believing a lie, ignore that and just repeat the lie as if somehow it then becomes true.


You cannot say that I would tell someone they do not need Christ when I expressely know that they will not be saved without Christ.

If you know of someone specific who is a Christian Universalist that has expressely stated that no one needs Christ now would be the time to demonstrate it, or repent from this lie.



I will say however, that the gospel of BAD NEWS can be ignored and has no bearing on anyones salvation.


If you know someone your talking to and they make an indication to someone they love who you think might be dead now and possibly damned forever then you have no Good News to share with them without making it a self preservation issue of the other person, but the BAD NEWS will still persist. That is why Eternal Damnation is not the GOOD MESSAGE of Jesus Christ.

You talk in circles. You say that you tell people they need Christ now but then in the next breath you say that everyone (ALL) will be with Him anyway whether they accept Jesus in this life or not.

So then you accuse people of telling lies when in fact that's what you are doing, in a circular and meant to confuse motion. By your own words you are denying there is an eternal hell and denying the truth of God's Word yet you continue to insist and persist in perpetuating the lie of universal salvation.

You've been duped, you've been deceived by the devil himself. Satan is so exorbitantly happy with you universalists....he couldn't be more proud of the fact he has so many working for him with this lie. I suggest all of you stop listening to a man and get back into the WORD OF GOD. You've had your ears tickled but is it worth the price of your soul?

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

God commissioned Jesus to be saviour of the world, this is not an act of Christ alone. God work is being done through Christ and that is why all are saved, but all are saved only through Christ.

God's work is not being done through Christ. Christ is not a tool to be used by God. God and Christ are working together. Christ remains in the process of salvation is us. It's Christ work too.

I see what your saying, however, then the issue is if eternal damnation is not attached to any of mans choices.

That is one argument

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

NO YOU DO NOT!! All universalists do, as evidenced all over this board, is try and convince people that there is no need to do ANYTHING, much less worry about needing Jesus Christ!

This universalist (me) sides with J. Preston Eby:

I warn you that the heights of sonship, the kingdom, and all the fullness of God are not attained by merely hearing about them. Neither are they inherently ours as a result of the "finished work" of Calvary. Calvary takes care of your past, but your future demands a heart-absorbing, soul-consuming quest. IF we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with Him! It has always been a vicious trait of man to want everything handed to him on a silver platter. Thousands love to hear about manifested sonship and reigning with Christ, but never raise a finger to attain because they expect it as another of God’s gracious "gifts." Salvation is indeed a gift, and there are a great many wonderful gifts of God that are ours merely for the taking, but the high calling of God in Christ Jesus requires a pressing toward the mark for the prize. There is a world of difference between a gift and a prize. A gift is given because of the goodness of the giver, not because of the merit of the recipient. But to obtain a prize one must qualify. Oh yes, there are qualifications to be met for sonship and rulership in the kingdom of God - that is why we read in the Revelation again and again, "To him that overcometh will I give!" The "finished work" of Christ did not secure the throne for you, my beloved. Don’t try to persuade me that all we need do is believe. If that were the case all of us would have been manifested sons of God a long time ago! It is still true that "whom the Lord loveth, He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth" (Heb. 12:6). God does not scourge every sinner whom He saves — scourging is not a part of forgiveness and regeneration. One does not need to be scourged in order to receive what is freely given because of Calvary. But chastening, discipline, scourging, purging and refining are a vital part of the process of growing up into the character of God!

Thus, I believe that very few that call themselves Christians are willing to endure the heavy dealings of the Lord in severe purgings, deep prunings, extreme chastisements, uncompromising judgments and the blast of refining fires. God will make war against the carnal mind, God will make war against the religious mind, God will make war against our pride, selfishness, self-will, self-sufficiency and self-righteousness, God will make war against the flesh, the world and the devil in us, until He has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-conquering cross of Christ which will never give up its redeeming power until all that stands between us and the purpose of God in our sonship has no more a name among the sons of God.

You see, the hell that so many are being cast into by the church is ironically meant for them - so that they may be one with their God, Who is that consuming fire.