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"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice...
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Originally Posted by little elmer
The clay was marred in the Potters hand. We were made subject to vanity - not willingly - but because He planned to bring life out of death. (Jer 8:14, Rom 8:20)
...but we are predestined to holiness."
Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me." Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.(Matthew 26:38, 41)
A Savior: A Person who Rescues another from Harm, Danger or Loss. One who Saves, Preserves or Delivers from Destruction.
What a Savior is Not: A Person who Didn't Rescues another from Harm, Danger or Loss. One who didn't Save, Preserve or Deliver from Destruction.
The Scriptures Declare that Christ is the Savior of the World ( All Men ).
Christ Cannot be the Savior of the World ( All Men ) unless He Saves the World ( All Men ).
One cannot be a Sinner unless He Sins. One cannot be a Car Driver unless He Drives a Car. One cannot be an Actor unless He Acts.
One cannot be a Musician unless He Makes Music etc. Therefore, One cannot be a Savior unless He Saves.
Christ is the Savior of the World ( All Men ) so Logically He Must Save the World ( All Men ) or the Scripture is False and Christ is Not the Savior of the World ( All Men ).
You know...I could also be ice skating on a frozen lake and fall through, going under once, going under twice, perhaps even three times....
I could be going under the fourth time, with absolutely no strength left in me, and yet, refuse the hand that is reaching out to me, a hand that is longing, willing, and capable of pulling me from what would be a sure death. Why?
Search deep inside of you and try to find the why.........
You know...I could also be ice skating on a frozen lake and fall through, going under once, going under twice, perhaps even three times....
I could be going under the fourth time, with absolutely no strength left in me, and yet, refuse the hand that is reaching out to me, a hand that is longing, willing, and capable of pulling me from what would be a sure death. Why?
Search deep inside of you and try to find the why.........
In this scenario it would be more like we are born into the lake, blind and not knowing what it is like to be on the ice ---- the water is all we know ---- it is not until our eyes are opened that we see the ice and the hand reaching for us and appreciate the predicament that we were born into.
In this scenario it would be more like we are born into the lake, blind and not knowing what it is like to be on the ice ---- the water is all we know ---- it is not until our eyes are opened that we see the ice and the hand reaching for us and appreciate the predicament that we were born into.
The living water of life is the Spirit within All Men, but the living soul rejects this based on its own acceptance; the act of taking or receiving something which is already given.
You know...I could also be ice skating on a frozen lake and fall through, going under once, going under twice, perhaps even three times....
I could be going under the fourth time, with absolutely no strength left in me, and yet, refuse the hand that is reaching out to me, a hand that is longing, willing, and capable of pulling me from what would be a sure death. Why?
Search deep inside of you and try to find the why.........
In the biblical sense of salvation, Jesus would either dive in after you and rescue you, or He would instantly drain the lake, or He would command you to walk on the water but in no sense would He ever have it that you will not be saved.
In the biblical sense of salvation, Jesus would either dive in after you and rescue you, or He would instantly drain the lake, or He would command you to walk on the water but in no sense would He ever have it that you will not be saved.
In this scenario it would be more like we are born into the lake, blind and not knowing what it is like to be on the ice ---- the water is all we know ---- it is not until our eyes are opened that we see the ice and the hand reaching for us and appreciate the predicament that we were born into.
Well said. How simple and obvious is that? How can the majority of Christians seem so confused about this? (ooops - I almost forgot. Most were born into a lake of false ET concepts. I reach out my hand but.... )
More than simply what we think of God, but what God has said about Himself - as well as what he's commanded us to do (and not to do).
Eternal torment violates many commandments given to the people of God.
According to you, but we have pulled up Scripture to support our view as well. To say that we are putting our own thoughts into this is a gross misconception.
Let's see, God won't infringe on the supposed free will to love Him but He will infringe on the supposed free will to damn them?
You claim that no one chooses hell, but they didn't choose God either. If you tie it in with all the verses that state that believing is an essential trait of salvation, then these people undeliberately chose hell. Read James. Either u r a friend of the world and an enemy of God or vice versa. One or the other.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
I think the point is that ETERNAL tortue can't be from a loving, all knowing, all present, all powerful God. Chastening? Yes.
Your opinion. Now corroborate that with the Scriptures provided by Enow on page 1 of this thread. If it's just ur opinion, then it means nothing in the face of Scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I think the standard is more that which God implanted into the breast of every rational, loving human.
Again, see Scripture. We draw our view from Scripture. Quit assuming otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
If mankind has a supposed "free will" which is a will free from influence, and if God threatens people with eternal torture if they don't love Him, is He not in fact forcing Himself by way of holding them hostage to their fears till they break? Since the will of man is to run from God (Romans 3:10-18) how does God get man to love Him unless he intrude and change them from the inside against their wills?
Again, you are under some false assumption that we ET believers use hell as the means to get people to get convert and have a relationship with Christ and that is completely untrue. I don't know how many times we are going to have to make that clear.God holds no one hostage, it's the Gospel that God uses to get people to come to Him, not hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
And they are hardened by God. Why would God make it impossible to love Him if eternal torment is true? Doesn't that sound rather odd to you?
That idea only works if you don't believe there is such thing as the unpardonable sin, which we do since it is in Scripture. If the unpardonable sin is true, then God isn't at fault, but man for becoming so hardened. Does God harden people? Yes, but to that point. No, He doesn't. It comes down to whether or not u will acknowledge the unpardonable sin as real and capable of being committed today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Which brings us to an important point: Since Christ died for all the sins of all mankind, and since God accepted that sacrifice, that this must have done something for mankind. The ones God gives faith are the ones He has chosen and they will be glorified. They believe not out of a free will but due to God overwhelming them. The rest of mankind will come later.
So God shows favoritism to current believers? He allows them to enjoy greater riches in heavens than those who didn't come to believe in this lifetime. That's not Scriptural. See James 2:1-13. God doesn't show favoritism to anyone, but you just claimed that He chose to honor and glorify the ones He has chosen to follow Him in this lifetime more so than those who would come later. I'm sorry, but love doesn't show favoritism either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
But God can. He will change the hearts of His people and in that day they will love Him with all their heart when He gives them a new heart.
Again, I would highlight the unpardonable sin here. If God was willing to do that, then why didn't He do it with the devil? Why not stop him so that humanity would have never gone into sin? If God was willing to change the hearts of people, then why not change us now? Why not bring the devil back into a relationship with Him and end this war?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
It is easy to surrender to a god who is dangling you over an eternal hell fire and damnation pit. yea, that's real surrender all right! LOL.
Once again, the misconception is made evident here. What part of "we ET believers don't use hell but the gospel to reach the lost" do you people not seem to understand? If you are going to argue with someone over their theology, then get the basic premises right. Otherwise, you come off looking ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
You are incorrect as to your last sentence. Calvinists believe God purposely created people for hell.
Fine. Ill give you that much. But I am not a Calvinist and I don't believe that God sends people to hell. They go of their own accord.
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