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Unread 03-09-2010, 05:40 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Default 70 Generations from Enoch to Jesus

I know the book of Enoch is non-canonical, but the NT (notably Jude and Peter) did at least draw from it. Unless it was somehow written after the NT.

Anyway, in Enoch, it predicts the messiah will arise 70 generations after Enoch, 'seventh from Adam.' This in itself would be harmless if Enoch was just a fairytale, but in Luke's genealogy of Jesus there are indeed 70 from Enoch to Jesus! It seems that (a) Enoch (the author of the book, nor the person Enoch) correctly predicted it, (b) Luke modified the genealogy here and there to make it match Enoch, (c) Enoch is again taking from it. Something is going on here! If Luke just made something up like that, how can we be sure he didn't just make up or borrow things from older non-inspired texts as he saw fit?

What also seems a bit troubling is that Enoch says the judgement will occur 70 generations after Enoch; at the time of Christ. Christ says he would return before the generation had passed away, again fitting in with Enoch. So here we have another conundrum: either (a) Christ was a false prophet or (b) the Preteist's interpretation is correct and he somehow returned before the generation ended. But Enoch speaks of judging angels.etc, which doesn't seem very plausible. If such an event occured I'm sure nobody would have missed it!

Actually the generation thing still troubles me a little bit from time to time, and this revelation comes as a bit of a shock to my faith. How would you explain/make sense of this? Any thoughts.etc much appreciated.
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Unread 03-09-2010, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I know the book of Enoch is non-canonical, but the NT (notably Jude and Peter) did at least draw from it. Unless it was somehow written after the NT.

Anyway, in Enoch, it predicts the messiah will arise 70 generations after Enoch, 'seventh from Adam.' This in itself would be harmless if Enoch was just a fairytale, but in Luke's genealogy of Jesus there are indeed 70 from Enoch to Jesus! It seems that (a) Enoch (the author of the book, nor the person Enoch) correctly predicted it, (b) Luke modified the genealogy here and there to make it match Enoch, (c) Enoch is again taking from it. Something is going on here! If Luke just made something up like that, how can we be sure he didn't just make up or borrow things from older non-inspired texts as he saw fit?

What also seems a bit troubling is that Enoch says the judgement will occur 70 generations after Enoch; at the time of Christ. Christ says he would return before the generation had passed away, again fitting in with Enoch. So here we have another conundrum: either (a) Christ was a false prophet or (b) the Preteist's interpretation is correct and he somehow returned before the generation ended. But Enoch speaks of judging angels.etc, which doesn't seem very plausible. If such an event occured I'm sure nobody would have missed it!

Actually the generation thing still troubles me a little bit from time to time, and this revelation comes as a bit of a shock to my faith. How would you explain/make sense of this? Any thoughts.etc much appreciated.
It seems to me that you are already finding what you've been taught doesn't exactly jive with what is taught in scripture. Keep searching along those lines and you just may be surprised by the truths you will encounter.

This should get you started: Berean Bible Church
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Unread 03-09-2010, 08:23 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 819,728 times
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Quote:
Anyway, in Enoch, it predicts the messiah will arise 70 generations after Enoch, 'seventh from Adam.'
And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated.

Enoch 10:12

this is the only reference to 70 generations in the Book of Enoch, nothing of the Messiah is said here.

According to the book of Enoch, Enoch himself would be the son of man:

Then that angel came to me, and with his voice saluted me, saying, You [Enoch] are the Son of man, who art born for righteousness, and righteousness has rested upon you.

Enoch 70:17

http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch61-105.htm#Chapter70

The translations differ, but according to the German translation, also Enoch would be the son of man; the book of Enoch is only preserved completely in an Ethiopic translation and possibly interpolations have been made in Christian times.

The author of Enoch may have chosen 70 generations because it is a symbolic number:

http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu70.php

he speaks of 70 shepherds elsewhere

Last edited by svenM; 03-09-2010 at 09:14 AM..
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Unread 03-09-2010, 10:05 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,403,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I know the book of Enoch is non-canonical, but the NT (notably Jude and Peter) did at least draw from it. Unless it was somehow written after the NT.

Anyway, in Enoch, it predicts the messiah will arise 70 generations after Enoch, 'seventh from Adam.' This in itself would be harmless if Enoch was just a fairytale, but in Luke's genealogy of Jesus there are indeed 70 from Enoch to Jesus! It seems that (a) Enoch (the author of the book, nor the person Enoch) correctly predicted it, (b) Luke modified the genealogy here and there to make it match Enoch, (c) Enoch is again taking from it. Something is going on here! If Luke just made something up like that, how can we be sure he didn't just make up or borrow things from older non-inspired texts as he saw fit?

What also seems a bit troubling is that Enoch says the judgement will occur 70 generations after Enoch; at the time of Christ. Christ says he would return before the generation had passed away, again fitting in with Enoch. So here we have another conundrum: either (a) Christ was a false prophet or (b) the Preteist's interpretation is correct and he somehow returned before the generation ended. But Enoch speaks of judging angels.etc, which doesn't seem very plausible. If such an event occured I'm sure nobody would have missed it!

Actually the generation thing still troubles me a little bit from time to time, and this revelation comes as a bit of a shock to my faith. How would you explain/make sense of this? Any thoughts.etc much appreciated.
It is the fragment of Noah included within 1 Enoch that gives the parable of the judgment on sin in the 70th generation from Noah.

It is the parable of the Atonement, "when all sin would be ascribed/given to Azazel", who was chained in Sheol [the wilderness] from the time of the flood of Noah.

The Oracle of the Atonement was given to the people of the Name of the second Man to rehearse once, yearly, until it was fulfilled [Israel is that name, as the Scriptures tell us; the name "Salvation/Hoshea-Jesus" is His work, "Christ/Messiah" is His Spirit].
Enoch gives the parable of the Atonement, and Moses gives the Oracle, and the people of the Name rehearse it once, yearly, until it was fulfilled in the 70th generation from Noah. [Abraham rehearsed in first, as a living prophet, in the sacrifice of Isaac, which was when Abraham saw Jesus' Day and rejoiced in it, as the Ot and the Book of Jasher explain, and as the Psalmist records, in Psalm 118]

In the Oracles, the sins and iniquities of the nation of the people of the Name were transferred to the goat elected by lot "for Azazel", by the laying on of hands on that goat by the High Priest. Isaiah 53 shows that the soul of Jesus Christ was the "elected goat" "to Azazel", who received the transferrence of the sins and iniquities of all who receive Him, by faith, who always was to come and is come, and has finished that Atonement in the 70th generation from Noah.


The goat elected "to Azazel" on the Day of Atonement rehearsal was then sent away, to the "wilderness" to ascribe those sins "to Azazel", who was chained/bound, there from the time of the flood, and who would have all sin ascribed/given to Him, and who, for all eternity would forever suffer the torments of those ascribed sins, in the Lake of Fire -along with with those other watchers/angels, who "brought down sin", with Azazel.

The elected goat, the "Ram", who would have all those sins laid on Him was the soul of Jesus the Christ, to whom those sins were transferred as Isaiah 53 states, and who then became sin for us, when He tasted our death of separation from the Father of Glory; when the Father turned from Him while He was "bound to horns of the altar of sacrifice", as Psalm 118 states [bound to the cross] as our God. He then died of a broken heart, as the Scripture states.
Quote:



Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, [and] I will praise the LORD:

This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner.

This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
God [is] the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, [even] unto the horns of the altar. Thou [art] my God, and I will praise thee: [thou art] my God, I will exalt thee.
This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes. Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
He descended, ascribed/gave those sins on Azazel, and loosed the righteous souls who were held captive in the first death of separation which was the separation from the Father of Glory, who were waiting in Sheol below, in the comfort of the hollow prepared for them [as Enoch revealed it to be and as Jesus also referred to in Luke 16], to wait for the Atonement in. The Atonement was the appointed day for all the elect/righteous souls to be released from there, and He took them to Zion above.
That Atonement in the 70th generation from Noah ended the first death for all who have put their trust in the LORD for redemption, who had died and descended there, from the beginning; from the first righteous soul, Abel, who was slain and descended there, to the time of the Atonement; and now no one who has called on the name of the LORD for salvation goes to Sheol below to wait for the Atonement, when all sin was ascribed/given "to Azazel".

In the Law, which is the "Schoolmaster for teaching us how to come to Christ", the Oracles of the Atonement teach us that Enoch's parable is true, in that "Azazel" is given all sin by the goat elected by lot to be sent away, to Azazel, upon whom all sin an iniquity was transferred to, by the laying on of hands and confession of those sins and iniquities over that goat, by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement. The High Priest was serving in the office of Christ/the Messiah, by the "anointing/Messiah oil", and rehearsed the Day of Atonement, once, yearly, which Jesus the Christ finished once, for all, in the "Appointed Year".

"Whosoever will" may now call on His name for salvation, and for them, the separation of death from the Father of Glory is ended, once, forever, and they will never see that death of separation for it is ended by the Atonement offered once, for all, and which was "The Acceptable Year".

Leviticus 16 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot to YHWH, and the other lot to Azazel"
The live goat was elected to be sent away, "to Azazel", "in the wilderness".

These words are right out of 1 Enoch, and ignorance of the English translators translated Azazel as "scapegoat", which is not true, and which only muddles the Oracle of the Day of Atonement, which Enoch declared by parable, first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHeyM...eature=related

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 03-09-2010 at 10:31 AM..
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Unread 03-09-2010, 05:29 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated.

Enoch 10:12

this is the only reference to 70 generations in the Book of Enoch, nothing of the Messiah is said here.

According to the book of Enoch, Enoch himself would be the son of man:

Then that angel came to me, and with his voice saluted me, saying, You [Enoch] are the Son of man, who art born for righteousness, and righteousness has rested upon you.

Enoch 70:17

http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch61-105.htm#Chapter70

The translations differ, but according to the German translation, also Enoch would be the son of man; the book of Enoch is only preserved completely in an Ethiopic translation and possibly interpolations have been made in Christian times.

The author of Enoch may have chosen 70 generations because it is a symbolic number:

Number 70 Symbolism, 70 Meaning and Numerology

he speaks of 70 shepherds elsewhere

But Enoch did seem to predict the end of the world would happen after 70 generations, which was when the disciples and arguably Jesus believed the end of the world was nigh. This makes it seem that Jesus did indeed predict an end of the world return in the 1st Century AD. For Luke to list 70 ancestors for Jesus going back to Enoch seems more than a coincidence. This makes me think of C.S. Lewis' hypothesis that maybe Jesus' fallible human side was at play, after all even the Son did not know the hour of his return.

I find it interesting how Jude and Peter (1 and 2), as well as Revelation, nearly didn't get into the NT canon because they were so inspired by Enoch, which contains alot of pure myth and magic (stars being angelic beings, the world being flat, Enoch being the son of God). Indeed, those three have been the books I've always been a tad skeptical about.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 09:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Enoch, which contains alot of pure myth and magic (stars being angelic beings, the world being flat, Enoch being the son of God). Indeed, those three have been the books I've always been a tad skeptical about.
Your Enoch is not the 1 Enoch/ Ethiopian Enoch,/the Enoch of the Dead Sea
Scrolls.
Enoch is not called the son of God in 1 Enoch, but the Son of Man who was to come, who was with God and who was God, is called "the Son", in 1 Enoch.

The earth is not flat, Enoch told of the stars that never set, as seen from earth, a global earth.

And the stars/host of heaven are called angelic beings all through the OT and NT, besides Enoch.

And there is no "magic" in Enoch but that evil which was taught by the fallen Watchers to the sons of Adam.
The same is in the OT and NT, also, and is always done with the aid of the disembodied nephillim, who are the demons, as Enoch teaches.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 09:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
But Enoch did seem to predict the end of the world would happen after 70 generations, which was when the disciples and arguably Jesus believed the end of the world was nigh. .
No he did not. The book writes of the end of [the remembrance of] sin before the Glory, by the Atonement of the Son of Man's death and resurrection -taught in parables.
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