U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Old 03-10-2010, 03:32 PM
 
4,836 posts, read 4,007,841 times
Reputation: 997

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LOL
The post was very informative and gave me a lot more tools in my bible history toolbelt. I took the time to research it even. I think your connection between Persian beliefs and Pharisee is spot on.

(I also love that show... I particularly like the one where the woman doesn't realize that she is being taped.... The look on her face... Don't all interrogation rooms have cameras? )
I am a HUGE fan of the Persians and the founder of their empire, Cyrus the Great. They get little press and are very underrated. When people think of the Persians, they think of them in relation to the Greeks/Spartans, but folks do not realize that they had the greatest impact on the religions most of us are most familiar with.

Cyrus was an amazing man and ruler. He was different from previous rulers and endeared himself to his subjects. He was well loved even by those he conquered and ruled fairly. In fact, he started a tradition later Persian kings followed. The Jews loved the guy. One writer even called him god's messiah.

So while the Babylonians, Greeks and Romans get all the attention BECAUSE of Jewish wars and resistance toward them, the Persians fall below the radar because there is nothing bad written about them, but yet their religious influence on the Jews, Christians an Muslims is far reaching.

As for that show, it is just hilarious! Bunch of buffoons.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-14-2010, 04:20 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 950,013 times
Reputation: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That maybe correct, I don't know. I just did a quick word search in Biblegateway.com and that was the result of the search.

Point was, there is no substance for one to claim such. That's unless .....well, just leave it at that.
well, "hell" is obviously a mistranslation, at least as we understand that term today, Hel was the Germanic netherworld and the name of its godess, it was the realm of all the dead, just as Sheol in the Old Testament, Sheol / Hel(l) are no places of torment.

1 Samuel 2:6, Miles Coverdale Bible from 1535

The Lorde slayeth, and geueth life: he ledeth vnto hell, and bryngeth out agayne.

Darby translates:

Jehovah killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up.

The KJV in its bias rendered Sheol here with "grave" to hide that there is deliverance from Hel(l) as further supported by the book of Jonah

Jonah 2:2, KJV

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

2:6

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

it says Jonah was there for ever, yet it were only three days:

Matthew 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

so Jona's ever-lasting stay in hell was only three days.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2010, 04:43 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,740,592 times
Reputation: 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Hey bub..."hell" in the Old Testament context meant nothing more than the grave not some fiery pit of eternal torment as it came to mean in the New Testament. THAT is the interpretation of hell I was referring to. It is non-existent in the Old Testament.

Just like the concept of common name, satan, evolved to mean Satan a personal name, so did hell go from simply being the grave to a place of torment. Hell (Hades) in the New Testament is of Greek origin while in the Old Testament the Hebrew word was Sheol, a shadowy place where the dead resided no matter their status.
Tell 'em preacher man!
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2010, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,740,592 times
Reputation: 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
For all intensive purposes, the KJV Bible textual integrity (especially Isaiah) is correct. The core issue is really a matter of belief....which the "originals" couldn't stop people from not believing them either.
The problem is not with the KJV or with original Hebrew text - it is with church tradition. The word "Lucifer" has morphed into a popular term synonymous with the term "Satan". The point is, in the Hebrew it is הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar) which means Helel (Venus - thought to be a fallen god in the ancient Babylonian/Canaanite astrological religion) son of Shahar (who is another Babylonian/Canaanite god).

There is no use of the name 'lucifer' until Jerome translated from his Greek translation of the OT "heosphorus" as lucifer (from two words: lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre ("to bring").

In Babylonian/Canaanite mythology Helel/Venus fell out of favor with the gods and was cast down from a position of power. This was the popular tale Isaiah apparently used to prophesy the king of Babylon's coming demise, using the well known story of Helel son of Shahar metaphorically.

I have found that in the minds of many the modern usage of "Lucifer" is almost impossible to overcome as we are hypnotized by 1600 years of tradition but looking at the facts about these passages can snap us out of the trance.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2010, 08:50 AM
 
4,836 posts, read 4,007,841 times
Reputation: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The problem is not with the KJV or with original Hebrew text - it is with church tradition. The word "Lucifer" has morphed into a popular term synonymous with the term "Satan". The point is, in the Hebrew it is הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar) which means Helel (Venus - thought to be a fallen god in the ancient Babylonian/Canaanite astrological religion) son of Shahar (who is another Babylonian/Canaanite god).

There is no use of the name 'lucifer' until Jerome translated from his Greek translation of the OT "heosphorus" as lucifer (from two words: lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre ("to bring").

In Babylonian/Canaanite mythology Helel/Venus fell out of favor with the gods and was cast down from a position of power. This was the popular tale Isaiah apparently used to prophesy the king of Babylon's coming demise, using the well known story of Helel son of Shahar metaphorically.

I have found that in the minds of many the modern usage of "Lucifer" is almost impossible to overcome as we are hypnotized by 1600 years of tradition but looking at the facts about these passages can snap us out of the trance.
It is frustrating to watch and listen to people just ignore facts to pursue their fantasies no matter how wrong they are, but on the other than, I can understand how pride and fear can force people to persevere in error. After all I was ONCE in that number.

Thank you for ONCE again setting the record straight on this matter that has been the source of soooooooo much confusion and fear.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2010, 09:14 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 3,007,464 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
First, satan is a transliteration of σατανᾶς or satanas (strongs #4567) from the hebrew word שָׂטָן or satan (#7854)... This word MEANS adversary. Can you see that it is totally wrong for this word to be used in it's transliterated form rather than translated as adversary which is what the translation would be. So from the get go your using the word as a name is in error just as the translators leaving the transliteration and capitalizing it is in error.

Second, when you say that satan represents the bad and Christ the good... I have to disagree. Jesus was a man just like you (unless you are a woman like me ). Satan was never described as a human or created being. I don't see the similarity.

Furthermore, the word satan is not used in the Matthew 4 version of Jesus being tempted. The word used is διάβολος or diabolos (#1228) which means false accuser and is translated as "malicious gossips" three times. This word comes from diaballo which is to accuse and is used once in the NT:
Luke 16:1 He also said to his disciples, "There was a certain rich man who had a manager. An accusation was made to him that this man was wasting his possessions.

Now in Mark 1, satan is used... yet we see it is a very short version of the Matt 4 story...
So perhaps the story of Job and the false accuser, satan (who in Job is shown as a helper of God), is VERY similar to that of Jesus and the false accuser, devil. However, believing that satan or devil is a created being with power to influence people is unwarranted by the text, so I don't think you've made your point just from the text alone BUT putting what you are saying into the context of what satan and devil have come to mean since that time (and as Insane stated about the Persian influence.. perhaps earlier to a lesser degree) it makes more sense but is not anymore realistic.

I believe those of you who think of satan, devil, demons... etc. as created beings are mistaken. God is the author of good and EVIL as stated in Isaiah 45:7... so what use is there for a created EVIL being... ??
You are pretty much spot on with your understanding. Coming to grips with man's traditions, and what the Word says are two different things altogether.

You asked a question at the end:

Quote:
so what use is there for a created EVIL being??
To ask this, you are on a specific journey, into the very plan of God Himself.

Well, we know that God cannot tempt, nor be tempted. So, by this reason alone, we need to agree that if anyone is to be tested, it may be sanctioned by God, but not done by God Himself. Hense, when Jesus was tempted He was LED into the wilderness, TO BE TEMPTED by the devil. Same with Job.

All evil is, is the absence of God's Light. IOW, darkeness. Well, this is the devil's domain, just as the Light is Christ's domain. In order for mankind to freely come to God, we must search Him out from within the darkness, in order to bring us to the Light. We must become blind, in order to see.

Read Genesis 1:3-4. You will see, if able, the kingdoms being separated, Light from darkness. After seeing this, John 1 makes more sense. The devil is given domain in the darkness, just as Jesus is given domain over the Light. It is "granted authority", from the Father. It is given to both of them.

The reason it is given, is so that we have the opportunity to come to the Light. This is why Paul says we war. Not with men, because men are given authority BY US. But instead we war with darkness.

I don't know if I am making much sense...but it makes perfect sense to me. I went through this some months back, and He gave me the sight to "see" it
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2010, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,855,799 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
You are pretty much spot on with your understanding. Coming to grips with man's traditions, and what the Word says are two different things altogether.

You asked a question at the end:



To ask this, you are on a specific journey, into the very plan of God Himself.

Well, we know that God cannot tempt, nor be tempted. So, by this reason alone, we need to agree that if anyone is to be tested, it may be sanctioned by God, but not done by God Himself. Hense, when Jesus was tempted He was LED into the wilderness, TO BE TEMPTED by the devil. Same with Job.

All evil is, is the absence of God's Light. IOW, darkeness. Well, this is the devil's domain, just as the Light is Christ's domain. In order for mankind to freely come to God, we must search Him out from within the darkness, in order to bring us to the Light. We must become blind, in order to see.

Read Genesis 1:3-4. You will see, if able, the kingdoms being separated, Light from darkness. After seeing this, John 1 makes more sense. The devil is given domain in the darkness, just as Jesus is given domain over the Light. It is "granted authority", from the Father. It is given to both of them.

The reason it is given, is so that we have the opportunity to come to the Light. This is why Paul says we war. Not with men, because men are given authority BY US. But instead we war with darkness.

I don't know if I am making much sense...but it makes perfect sense to me. I went through this some months back, and He gave me the sight to "see" it
It does make sense... however, I just finished watching Clash of the Titans (the old one not the new one), and it sounds so much like what Christians today believe... Not exactly the same, but nonetheless the concepts are the same for the gods... Which made me wonder about how some of this came about considering the close association with the greeks in the 1st century.

But, if what you say is right and that evil exists as a counterpart to God and evil is the absence of light (or where God is not) then God cannot be omnipresent because he is absent in some place. Do you believe God is omnipresent?

I tend to believe that a god must be omnipresent in order to be omnipotent. And if a god is not omnipresent or omnipotent then he isn't much of a god... is he?

So what I believe is that the bible was written from man's perspective and so there are some things that are just myth, such as a being called devil. In Job, we see that Satan is working FOR God and not really against him. Therefore, when I see this I also remember that God sent an evil spirit to men in the OT.. and when they had learned what it was they had to learn then God sent his holy spirit to them...

I believe if God is not both Good and Evil then he really can't be omnipotent because there would be a challenge to his authority (the evil one).

How do you view God's superhuman qualities?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-16-2010, 05:23 PM
 
4,800 posts, read 2,828,582 times
Reputation: 609
Lucifer was the Cherub of the Lord and a Heavenly Angel of the most Highly Honored in Heaven and ruled over one fourth of the earth for Heaven, along with three other cherub Angels who ruled over the other three-quarters of the earth for the Lord God......... Cherub Lucifer became a proud and rebelled against the Lord God and decieved a multitude of angels and spirits to rebel against the Lord and the Lord God caste them out of Heaven and to the earth....... Cherub Lucifer lost his anointing of grace and became a dark spiritual wickness in the high places on the earth or in the abyss ? and lost his Heavenly name and became satan........ All Angels who rebelled were caste down to the earth , many were cast in to the abyss of hell were they are in chains today,.. the angels who got out of the abyss, for sin in the earth that are bounds,.. are spiritual wickness in the high places...... demons and powers of darkness are flesh spirits that the Lord used during the creation on the earth and the animals of the earth, are lost to the Lord and left to the earth or the abyss.....
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-16-2010, 10:56 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 3,007,464 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
It does make sense... however, I just finished watching Clash of the Titans (the old one not the new one), and it sounds so much like what Christians today believe... Not exactly the same, but nonetheless the concepts are the same for the gods... Which made me wonder about how some of this came about considering the close association with the greeks in the 1st century.
Yes, most ancient religions all had similar beliefs, and there are a ton that were incorporated into what we call Christianity. You need to buy the book "Pagan Christianity". It is a real eye opener.

Quote:
But, if what you say is right and that evil exists as a counterpart to God and evil is the absence of light (or where God is not) then God cannot be omnipresent because he is absent in some place. Do you believe God is omnipresent?
Yes, but in a different way than perhaps you believe. God is omnipresent only by relation to needs. God can be everywhere at once, or simply choose not to be. Think of it this way. God can read your thoughts, this second. If He needed to relay a message to you, it would not be the Father Himself. It would come through a messenger. If the Father were to reveal Himself, wholly, it would obliterate anything in darkness. That is the Holiness of our Father, and which is why Jesus and John both state no man has EVER seen the Father. So, in Spirit God is everywhere. In physicality, it is for man's benefit, He isn't.

Think of what happens at the Judgement. Without a Mediator in Jesus Christ, there is no need for a literal lake of fire, because God the Father IS a consuming fire. The lake is probably just being in His presense without a Mediator.

Quote:
I tend to believe that a god must be omnipresent in order to be omnipotent. And if a god is not omnipresent or omnipotent then he isn't much of a god... is he?
Agreed, but it has to be within the scope of God's Will to attribute His Divine Attributes. He would not go against Himself. Being present everywhere is the Spirit's duty. It is still sent by God, and is part of God, but since it isn't physical it cannot kill us, unless....

It can reside anywhere and anytime. It goes as the wind, not concerning Itself with Light nor Darkness. Only doing what needs done. Same with the Christ. Even though Jesus was indwelled fully with the Father, He still walked and talked among the worst of sinners. IOW, darkness. But the Work He was doing was the Father's business.

Quote:
So what I believe is that the bible was written from man's perspective and so there are some things that are just myth, such as a being called devil. In Job, we see that Satan is working FOR God and not really against him. Therefore, when I see this I also remember that God sent an evil spirit to men in the OT.. and when they had learned what it was they had to learn then God sent his holy spirit to them...
That is cool. I actually went down this road one time. But I have since learned what the kingdoms are and how they are represented, from Genesis to Revelation.

Quote:
I believe if God is not both Good and Evil then he really can't be omnipotent because there would be a challenge to his authority (the evil one).
I do not believe God is evil, at all. This is impossible. To allow evil is not being evil itself. Remember, even though God created darkness, it was still up to man to fall. Freewill is the greatest. With it, we can come to Him, or choose not to. The choice it truly ours to make.

Quote:
How do you view God's superhuman qualities?
If He were human, as in the Father, it would be unfathomable. Even Jesus was able to defy all know physical laws. Can you imagine being able to defy multi-dimentional laws, all at once? It boggles the mind with awe!
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-17-2010, 12:06 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,855,799 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yes, most ancient religions all had similar beliefs, and there are a ton that were incorporated into what we call Christianity. You need to buy the book "Pagan Christianity". It is a real eye opener.
I believe I would benefit as well.. I am a scholar at heart.. I wish it could generate revenue though.. lol


Quote:
Yes, but in a different way than perhaps you believe. God is omnipresent only by relation to needs. God can be everywhere at once, or simply choose not to be. Think of it this way. God can read your thoughts, this second. If He needed to relay a message to you, it would not be the Father Himself. It would come through a messenger. If the Father were to reveal Himself, wholly, it would obliterate anything in darkness. That is the Holiness of our Father, and which is why Jesus and John both state no man has EVER seen the Father. So, in Spirit God is everywhere. In physicality, it is for man's benefit, He isn't.
This makes sense in the abstract but in light of the omnipotent god I think that if he created everything he must then have created evil... evil being the opposite of good means that in contrast we as mortals learn that good is better than evil... True that God would obliterate everything in essence but in reality if he dwells in us and yet we sin (as I do nearly everyday... God help me) then really he is also the author of sin, right? I mean if God is the only creator then he also created evil as well right?

Quote:
Think of what happens at the Judgement. Without a Mediator in Jesus Christ, there is no need for a literal lake of fire, because God the Father IS a consuming fire. The lake is probably just being in His presense without a Mediator.
True.. but as mediator Christ speaks for humanity so there is no need for us to individually accept or reject Christ, right... because a mediator represents all mankind so that all mankind can be saved from their sins.... The lake of fire to me is just God's way of refining his creation which is his right...

Quote:
Agreed, but it has to be within the scope of God's Will to attribute His Divine Attributes. He would not go against Himself. Being present everywhere is the Spirit's duty. It is still sent by God, and is part of God, but since it isn't physical it cannot kill us, unless....
LOL @ unless..... still when you think about it, the spirit of God may be more mobile than God but still God... right? so IOW God must contain both good and evil in order to be creator of all ...wouldn't you say??

Quote:
It can reside anywhere and anytime. It goes as the wind, not concerning Itself with Light nor Darkness. Only doing what needs done. Same with the Christ. Even though Jesus was indwelled fully with the Father, He still walked and talked among the worst of sinners. IOW, darkness. But the Work He was doing was the Father's business.
I agree... BUT there is still the fact that he is creator of all so that nothing is created without the authority or approval of God, including but not limited to evil and good. So it is my opinion that God chose Jesus to be his advocate of good while God chose "devil" as his advocate for bad... does that make sense?

Quote:
That is cool. I actually went down this road one time. But I have since learned what the kingdoms are and how they are represented, from Genesis to Revelation.
I may understand them differently. I recently watched a segment on the history channel about the OT and it makes sense that from a military standpoint, that God really didn't need to have a personal hand in the actions of his people whereas most people today think that Moses was just a meek leader when it really makes more sense that he was indeed a military strategist.

Quote:
I do not believe God is evil, at all. This is impossible. To allow evil is not being evil itself. Remember, even though God created darkness, it was still up to man to fall. Freewill is the greatest. With it, we can come to Him, or choose not to. The choice it truly ours to make.
Inherently a creator of Good must also be a creator of evil... God himself sent an "evil spirit" to people in the OT (or so it is explained to us in the OT.) So naturally logic demands that a God who created all things created bad as well as good. Granted that the evil creation is ultimately for our understanding of good. I used to be a boat repair specialist... IOW I repaired fiberglass. The most important part of my job was to fix the flaws or damage to the fiberglass.. the job was entirely done by feel. I felt the flaws and fixed them. If I had not had flaws I would not have "gloried" in the end product. Therefore in order for one to experience good... one must be able to identify it's opposite, which is evil... IMO.


Quote:
If He were human, as in the Father, it would be unfathomable. Even Jesus was able to defy all know physical laws. Can you imagine being able to defy multi-dimentional laws, all at once? It boggles the mind with awe!
I don't really believe that Jesus did anything independent from the Father... therefore Jesus had no power to defy physical laws but God living in him did... perhaps that is why we differ theologically.

Why is it that you don't believe that God is the source of evil as well as good? if God was only good.. do you think evil would exist? Yet if God is the creator of ALL then he must have created evil and therefore is the originator of evil as well as good. Right?
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $89,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top