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Just to be a pain in the butt, I'd like to point out that there are two main folders listed in the topics Religion and Philosophy. The two folders are Christianity and Atheism and Agnosticism. That leaves out a lot of people.
Yes, it does, which is unfortunate.
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I am reminded of the time I went to a car race and before the action started, a minister stood in front of the standing crowd and said a prayer into the P.A. system. He concluded his prayer with, "in Jesus Christ our Savior... Amen". At which point I quietly whispered to my friend, "I guess the race officials figure that the crowd's Muslims and Buddhists are deaf."
I don't really know how you would expect a Christian to pray. Anyone who prays in public is going to pray according to the way his or her religion has taught him to. If I were to offer a public prayer, that's what I'd do. I believe a prayer is a conversation with God and not an oration for the purpose of pleasing anyone else who may hear it. I'm really not big into public prayers where people all have different values and beliefs (or no beliefs at all).
Well, I'm an agnostic, so I have one of the folders. To be forthright, I'm really am just being a pain in the butt. But when I first came to this forum about a week ago, I saw two, main religious folders, and neither covered Buddhists, Muslims, or Jews. Saying that these three groups don't really need a folder is a little like telling some Jews that they don't need a synagogue because they can congregate in the gymnasium at the YMCA.
I'd like to put in a vote for a Catholic forum.
The atheists think we're a bunch of medieval inquisitors.
Other Christians think we're a bunch of idoliterous pagans doomed to hell.
And, well the agnostics probably just don't give a damn.
Anyway. I really liked the title of your thread. It was refreshingly honest.
It's just demographics. Most Americans claim Christianity and so it seems the majority factor warranted it's own sub-forum.
The atheists wished for a section where they could share their stuff without being evangelized at every turn. Granted.
Everything else goes under religion and philosophy (there are Islamic, Buddhist and other world religion threads over there).
Seems to work fairly well.
I agree! Though the lack of designated space to include every religion is duly noted I think this forum does well to allow anyone and everyone, regardless of beliefs, an appropriate place to speak their mind. Sometimes things, such as this forum, are designed with efficiency and sensiblity in mind- not as a means to please every single person on the planet. The whole "politically correct" thing is getting ridiculously out of hand and I, for one, will never be in favor of entertaining the whim of every single person out there just so they don't feel "left out" or to avoid hurting anyone's "feelings". !
Though as for this:
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Originally Posted by GalileoSmith
I am reminded of the time I went to a car race and before the action started, a minister stood in front of the standing crowd and said a prayer into the P.A. system. He concluded his prayer with, "in Jesus Christ our Savior... Amen". At which point I quietly whispered to my friend, "I guess the race officials figure that the crowd's Muslims and Buddhists are deaf."
That's pretty screwed up and obnoxious. If they insist on saying some sort of prayer, it should be said in a very open manner without any mention of ANY religion, not so ridiculously assumptive and limiting as to mention jesus christ- and not just say his name, but to add insult to injury by referring to jesus as "OUR" savior! So in that case yeah, there might be a need for some diplomacy for the race guys. Not PC- DIPLOMACY. Big difference.
What? The prayer itself? Why? People pray the way they have been taught to pray and the way they feel comfortable praying. If I were to say a prayer in public, where not everyone shared my religious beliefs, you'd probably think it was screwed up and obnoxious, too, but in all honesty, I wouldn't even know how to go about praying in a way that would make non-Christians happy.
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If they insist on saying some sort of prayer, it should be said in a very open manner without any mention of ANY religion, not so ridiculously assumptive and limiting as to mention jesus christ- and not just say his name, but to add insult to injury by referring to jesus as "OUR" savior! So in that case yeah, there might be a need for some diplomacy for the race guys. Not PC- DIPLOMACY. Big difference.
So who do you think insisted upon it in the first place? It wouldn't have been the person who offered the prayer. Somebody knew he was a Christian minister and asked him to pray. That's the person you should be coming down on, not the person who prayed in the only way that makes sense to him. Personally, I think a prayer at a sporting event is kind of silly anyway. It would have been darned near impossible for anyone to have offered a prayer without offending someone. I mean, what wouldn't have offended you? "God, whoever you are or aren't, bless us all if you can and otherwise don't bother."
Big bucket folders are more interesting because the folks that post span a greater difference of opinion. If everyone in a folder just agreed because the folders were too granular, now how interesting would that be?
Saying that these three groups don't really need a folder is a little like telling some Jews that they don't need a synagogue because they can congregate in the gymnasium at the YMCA.
Just to be a pain in the butt, I'd like to point out that there are two main folders listed in the topics Religion and Philosophy. The two folders are Christianity and Atheism and Agnosticism. That leaves out a lot of people.
I am reminded of the time I went to a car race and before the action started, a minister stood in front of the standing crowd and said a prayer into the P.A. system. He concluded his prayer with, "in Jesus Christ our Savior... Amen". At which point I quietly whispered to my friend, "I guess the race officials figure that the crowd's Muslims and Buddhists are deaf."
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Originally Posted by helios666
That's pretty screwed up and obnoxious. If they insist on saying some sort of prayer, it should be said in a very open manner without any mention of ANY religion, not so ridiculously assumptive and limiting as to mention jesus christ- and not just say his name, but to add insult to injury by referring to jesus as "OUR" savior! So in that case yeah, there might be a need for some diplomacy for the race guys. Not PC- DIPLOMACY. Big difference.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
What? The prayer itself? Why? People pray the way they have been taught to pray and the way they feel comfortable praying. If I were to say a prayer in public, where not everyone shared my religious beliefs, you'd probably think it was screwed up and obnoxious, too, but in all honesty, I wouldn't even know how to go about praying in a way that would make non-Christians happy.
Yes, the prayer itself WAS OBNOXIOUS. It wasn't simply "let's all take a moment of silence". There was a mention made of not just of jesus's name, but the minister referred to jesus presumptuously as "OUR" SAVIOR, at a PUBLIC EVENT. As if to assume that the patrons of said event MUST be christians. What part of that is NOT obnoxious- that is, if you are to place yourself in a pair of shoes other than yours, and step outside the box just for one moment and remember that not everyone believes that jesus is our saviour for one; and rather than going on, I think that reason stands on its own well enough. And yes you, and any people are welcome to pray the way they have been taught to pray and no, I would not think it was screwed up and obnoxious for you to pray as you wish- in public, even, wherever you like, but NOT AT A PUBLIC EVENT on a loudspeaker in the same way you would sing the national anthem had you been invited to do so!!! There's a big difference between religious freedom and shoving religion down someone's throat and I'm sorry, but if you don't already see the difference then I can't explain it to you.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
So who do you think insisted upon it in the first place? It wouldn't have been the person who offered the prayer. Somebody knew he was a Christian minister and asked him to pray. That's the person you should be coming down on, not the person who prayed in the only way that makes sense to him. Personally, I think a prayer at a sporting event is kind of silly anyway. It would have been darned near impossible for anyone to have offered a prayer without offending someone. I mean, what wouldn't have offended you? "God, whoever you are or aren't, bless us all if you can and otherwise don't bother."
Who insisted on the prayer is immaterial to me, that's not what the issue is about. The issue is that nobody stopped for a moment to think that there might actually be some people who do NOT believe the same things as the team/racing members do, and it just shows lack of diplomacy and respect, that's all. I wouldn't wish that they include everyone's religion in a stupid prayer- that's absurd. But if they are to pray, OUT LOUD for everyone to hear at an event open to the public, then it would be wise to use some common courtesy and make the prayer to where EVERYONE would feel like it was addressed to them and would include them, not EXclude them. You just don't happen to see it that way because you agree with the touted beliefs in question. But let's say I was in charge of some sort of event- be it sporting, racing whatever- and it was public- how would you feel if I was a satanist, and had a knight of my satanic church read some "prayer" and finished with "satan, as you savior, bids that thou do as thou wilt". Would you be taking the same defensive position of the prayer? I tend to doubt it.
OH and yes, I would LOVE to be anywhere and hear this:
"God, whoever you are or aren't, bless us all if you can and otherwise don't bother."
That's the best thing I've ever seen you write and I hope that somewhere, someone reads it and writes it down and uses it whenever the occasion calls for it! :-)
Yes, the prayer itself WAS OBNOXIOUS. It wasn't simply "let's all take a moment of silence". There was a mention made of not just of jesus's name, but the minister referred to jesus presumptuously as "OUR" SAVIOR, at a PUBLIC EVENT. As if to assume that the patrons of said event MUST be christians. What part of that is NOT obnoxious- that is, if you are to place yourself in a pair of shoes other than yours, and step outside the box just for one moment and remember that not everyone believes that jesus is our saviour for one; and rather than going on, I think that reason stands on its own well enough. And yes you, and any people are welcome to pray the way they have been taught to pray and no, I would not think it was screwed up and obnoxious for you to pray as you wish- in public, even, wherever you like, but NOT AT A PUBLIC EVENT on a loudspeaker in the same way you would sing the national anthem had you been invited to do so!!! There's a big difference between religious freedom and shoving religion down someone's throat and I'm sorry, but if you don't already see the difference then I can't explain it to you.
Wow. You are really pretty worked up over this, aren't you? All I was trying to do was explain that, to me, prayer is a conversation between a person and God. It's not the same thing as "taking a moment of silence." Why should we pretend it is? If whoever was in charge of the event wanted the crowd to "take a moment of silence," then why didn't he simply ask the minister to suggest that everybody "take a moment of silence"? Instead, someone asked a Christian minister to say a prayer, and now you're offended that he said a Christian prayer.
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Who insisted on the prayer is immaterial to me, that's not what the issue is about. The issue is that nobody stopped for a moment to think that there might actually be some people who do NOT believe the same things as the team/racing members do, and it just shows lack of diplomacy and respect, that's all. I wouldn't wish that they include everyone's religion in a stupid prayer- that's absurd. But if they are to pray, OUT LOUD for everyone to hear at an event open to the public, then it would be wise to use some common courtesy and make the prayer to where EVERYONE would feel like it was addressed to them and would include them, not EXclude them.
Helios, we're obviously not even speaking the same language here. The prayer wasn't address to everyone. It wasn't supposed to be addressed to everyone. It was supposed to be addressed to God, and it was addressed to the only God the person doing the praying believes exists. Prayer is not a speech addressed to the people listening in. That's where you and I seem to be butting heads.
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You just don't happen to see it that way because you agree with the touted beliefs in question.
Don't presume to tell me why I feel the way I do.
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But let's say I was in charge of some sort of event- be it sporting, racing whatever- and it was public- how would you feel if I was a satanist, and had a knight of my satanic church read some "prayer" and finished with "satan, as you savior, bids that thou do as thou wilt". Would you be taking the same defensive position of the prayer? I tend to doubt it.
Well, sorry, but you're wrong. As offensive as I might personally be to hear someone praying to Satan, I would defend anybody's right to pray to whatever power he might believe in, for the simple reason that that's the whole point behind prayer.
Oh, and by the way, did you not even see where in my very first response on this thread I specifically stated that I am not big on public prayers for the simple reason that they can't possibly be both both sincere and politically correct? I believe public prayers should be reserved for times when everybody in attendance believes the same way. You seemed to miss that in your zeal to come down on me like I'm some kind of fundamentalist nut job.
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OH and yes, I would LOVE to be anywhere and hear this:
"God, whoever you are or aren't, bless us all if you can and otherwise don't bother."
That's the best thing I've ever seen you write and I hope that somewhere, someone reads it and writes it down and uses it whenever the occasion calls for it! :-)
Well, that's great. The only problem with it is that it wouldn't be a prayer at all. So I have no idea what the point of saying it would be.
All I was trying to do was explain that, to me, prayer is a conversation between a person and God.
Fair enough, and I agree with your definition of a prayer. And with regard to that definition I believe it is implied that that conversation be personal, and PRIVATE. Not something to be broadcast for onlookers and everyone else sharing current company. If it were really all about just saying a prayer, the prayer would have been said privately among the teammates prior to the event and not on the PA system as it apparently was.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
The prayer wasn't address to everyone. It wasn't supposed to be addressed to everyone. It was supposed to be addressed to God, and it was addressed to the only God the person doing the praying believes exists. Prayer is not a speech addressed to the people listening in. That's where you and I seem to be butting heads.
We are butting heads because you are failing to see the logistics of the situation. If the prayer was NOT addressed to everyone, and only addressed to god, then why was there a need to broadcast the prayer over a PA? God doesn't need a loudspeaker- god doesn't even need people to say prayers out loud for them to be heard from what I've always understood. So it seems that there was some sort of motivation somehow to make darn sure everyone heard this prayer whether they wanted to or not. And I just don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Well, sorry, but you're wrong. As offensive as I might personally be to hear someone praying to Satan, I would defend anybody's right to pray to whatever power he might believe in, for the simple reason that that's the whole point behind prayer.
You seem to think that I am somehow wanting to impede one's freedom of speech simply because I take issue with broadcasting a biased and exclusive prayer. I do not. I simply feel that prayer has a time and a place, and that it is personal- between the person saying the prayer and whatever power/god he is addressing. That of course includes group prayers but again, those have their time and place. And I will never agree that a PUBLIC event where the crowd (with likely very varied religious beliefs or lack thereof) has gathered there for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, is an appropriate place to broadcast a prayer- really ANY prayer- but particularly one of such a slanted and exclusive nature.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Oh, and by the way, did you not even see where in my very first response on this thread I specifically stated that I am not big on public prayers for the simple reason that they can't possibly be both both sincere and politically correct? I believe public prayers should be reserved for times when everybody in attendance believes the same way. You seemed to miss that in your zeal to come down on me like I'm some kind of fundamentalist nut job.
I did notice that you said that in the early part of the thread. And I noticed that you said it again. But you seem to keep contradicting yourself. Either you believe prayer is private and should, as you say, "be reserved for times when everyone in attendance believes the same way", or you believe that prayer is OK even if there is a chance that those in attendance do not all believe the same way. Which is it?
And if you are not a fundamentalist nut job then I am glad! And as well I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to make you out to be one. But in fairness, it's obvious you are christian and it's easy to blur the lines sometimes. Especially the way you are defending this whole "prayer" thing. Again, it's all about what is APPROPRIATE, and just because you belong to same religion as the minister who broadcast the prayer and have an understanding of why he did what he did doesn't make the act any less appropriate or any more diplomatic. The separation of church and state exists for a reason, and I am all for that. As well, I personally believe that said separation should exist in places where the public is welcome- places that are NOT designated houses or worship or events of a religious/spiritual nature.
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