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God does NOT call for a separation from HIM! Fear and love cannot coexist in the same mind. Love casts out fear. "Love of God and each other" brings us closer to God. "Fear of hell and damnation" separates us from God. Which do you think is the result of deception by the devil?
Jesus gave a parable of the rich man and the beggar named, Lazarus.
Are you going to accuse Jesus of being deceptive?
Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Jesus spoke of the reality of the place of torment after death for the rich man. Several facts are relayed here.
The person in this place of torment:
#1. Is in flames for he desire his tongue to be cooled by water: v 24
#2. It was explained why the rich man was being tormented: v25
#3. Because of the great gulf, he cannot come out of it: v 26
#4. Because of the great gulf, neither can anyone come to him: v26
#5. The reality of the sin of not believing is those in the land of the living will not hear for they do not want to repent as Jesus has been risen from the dead and still... not all believe the Gospel when they hear it: v27-31
Reads to me that Jesus has validated the existence of the place of torment and the reason why they will not believe for they do not want to repent or be delivered from their evil deeds.
And since you had quoted the phrase "deception of the devil", your standard of judgment returns unto your teaching because UR gives no one cause to repent right away or see the need for the Saviour. Indeed, UR motivates people in the opposite direction and that is to procrastinate coming to Him to be delievered from their bondage to sin and to death.
So you decide this day if Jesus was teaching a deception of the devil or you are.
Jesus gave a parable of the rich man and the beggar named, Lazarus.
Are you going to accuse Jesus of being deceptive?
Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Jesus spoke of the reality of the place of torment after death for the rich man. Several facts are relayed here.
The person in this place of torment:
#1. Is in flames for he desire his tongue to be cooled by water: v 24
#2. It was explained why the rich man was being tormented: v25
#3. Because of the great gulf, he cannot come out of it: v 26
#4. Because of the great gulf, neither can anyone come to him: v26
#5. The reality of the sin of not believing is those in the land of the living will not hear for they do not want to repent as Jesus has been risen from the dead and still... not all believe the Gospel when they hear it: v27-31
Reads to me that Jesus has validated the existence of the place of torment and the reason why they will not believe for they do not want to repent or be delivered from their evil deeds.
And since you had quoted the phrase "deception of the devil", your standard of judgment returns unto your teaching because UR gives no one cause to repent right away or see the need for the Saviour. Indeed, UR motivates people in the opposite direction and that is to procrastinate coming to Him to be delievered from their bondage to sin and to death.
So you decide this day if Jesus was teaching a deception of the devil or you are.
Of Course Christ is being deceptive, if that is how you want to think about it. I prefer to think about it as him being veiled and mysterious. He wasnt in fact lying, he was merely veiling his mysteries in the trappings of their own false doctrine with this parable. That was the whole point of his speaking in parables in the first place. He even admitted to the fact ...
Mat 13:13-15
"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
Silly, that was the whole reason he taught in parables, so that they would not understand in their hearts, and turn and be healed.
Many people today still do not understand in their hearts, and cannot turn to the true Christ and be healed of their fear and hate and condemnation under the law.
But one day everyone will understand and turn unto God and be healed and sing the name of Christ in worship unto the glory of God.
And if after death, judgment, then it would go to the glory of God that all that hear the Gospel should believe, but no. That is not the case. Not all that hear the Gospel, believes.
So the will of God is that all those that believe in the Son are saved while those that do not believe, are condemned already: for they prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Jesus Christ to save them from their bondage to sin and to death. God knows this and that is why not all are drawn unto the Son to be saved.
The only reason that people prefer darkness to light is because they are yet in and of the darkness, and the light of the truth of the gospel of God in Christ has not yet shined in their hearts. Those of the flesh prefer the things of the flesh, while those of the spirit prefer the things of the spirit. But we were all at one time of the flesh until God worked within us by the power of his holy spirit which renewed us spiritually and caused us to will and do his Good pleasure. One cannot willingly resist being born in the flesh, neither can one willing resist being born again in the spirit. In Gods own Good time, all people will be renewed and caused to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved, for that is the will of God and none can resist him.
Jesus gave a parable of the rich man and the beggar named, Lazarus.
Yes he did... and:
1. Faith in God is never mentioned in the parable
2. In this one parable everything the rest of the bible teaches about Sheol is contradicted (you may want to find out why that is)
3. Moses and the prophets never preached about fiery afterlife torment!
(We have one reference by Daniel to OLAM shame).
So, what does it all mean???
4. Look at all the apostles preaching - they NEVER warned the masses to escape a place of afterlife punishment, not once. In fact - only James mentions Gahenna even one time metaphorically in reference to the tongue.
Just a note - that was a PARABLE - "All these things spoke Jesus IN PARABLES unto the multitudes; and without a parable spoke He nothing unto them" (Mat. 13:34). "But privately to His disciples He expounded all things" (Mk. 4:34).
Thank-you for praying for me. We all need it. You can give me the testimony I'm looking for though, but I can tell you don't want to. You have the arrogance to divide by putting up poles (like David did when he numbered Israel for his own pleasure) but you will not give us your own testimony considering the faith YOU hold to.
Since you were ignoring everything I have shared in regards to the faith in Jesus Christ: somehow, I just don't see it worth repeating. I really believe you want to get into a word game here to use them in twisting them as a testimony against me. You are already judging me as being arrogant: so I can pretty much expect the same attitude here.
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What I've gathered so far from your posts (over the last few days) is this:
1. Faith is what saves, not Jesus.
That is exactly what I mean about twisting my words around just to push your belief by word games. I'm not playing it.
The gospel is simple that even a child can come freely to Him.
How does any relationship exist? By trusting the other person whereas in this case in regards to the New Covenant: trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ to be that Saviour is how one receives salvation as well as that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
Trusting the Lord is something a child can do and religious men and sinners need to receive the kingdom of God as a child would or otherwise they shall in no wise enter therein.
Mark 10: 13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
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2. A man is justified before God based upon his faith, rather than the blood of Christ on the cross.
Word games again. There are verses on both of those statements and yet you cannot see how they connect? Faith in Jesus Christ that His blood will present us holy, blameless, and unreprovable in His sight.
Colossians 1: 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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3. There is no distinction between objective justification by Christ alone and the subjective reckoning (or imputing) of righteousness to the believers account, based upon the work (or faith) of the Spirit.
Romans 4:3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
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4. The Gospel is an offer rather than a proclamation of truth that the sinner is to believe and rejoice in.
Romans 10: 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
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5. That Christ did not actually accomplish salvation for anyone but rather only made salvation a possibility, if only the flesh (the sinner) will do it's part to bring about the regeneration of the work of the Spirit.
Corrected below:
John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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6. God desires the salvation of all but cannot bring it to fruition without the aid of the dead sinner making it happen.
False again. God knows who would receive salvation to want to be saved.
John 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Does that about sum it up for me? Correct me if I'm wrong. I really would like to know what you believe. Are you ashamed of it when I put it in those terms?
They do not represent me and just as you are doing with the Gospel, so are you doing with my words.
IF UR is the gospel, then what would be the danger of this?
Matthew 7: 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
What would be the point of seeking to believe in order to be saved if all are saved?
Matthew 7:7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Of Course Christ is being deceptive, if that is how you want to think about it. I prefer to think about it as him being veiled and mysterious. He wasnt in fact lying, he was merely veiling his mysteries in the trappings of their own false doctrine with this parable. That was the whole point of his speaking in parables in the first place. He even admitted to the fact ...
Mat 13:13-15
"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
Silly, that was the whole reason he taught in parables, so that they would not understand in their hearts, and turn and be healed.
Many people today still do not understand in their hearts, and cannot turn to the true Christ and be healed of their fear and hate and condemnation under the law.
But one day everyone will understand and turn unto God and be healed and sing the name of Christ in worship unto the glory of God.
Thank you, Ironmaw . . . My old bones appreciate your saving me the trouble of pointing out what should be obvious to those who simply do not seem to understand why Jesus used parables. The veil of ignorance over the OT skews the understanding of God into primitive concepts and expectations (apparently even to this day) . . . so He could NOT be direct. He had to tailor His message to the carnal understanding and expectations of His audience . . . as Paul also revealed in the "milk vs. solid food" explanation of their carnal minds.
Since you were ignoring everything I have shared in regards to the faith in Jesus Christ: somehow, I just don't see it worth repeating. I really believe you want to get into a word game here to use them in twisting them as a testimony against me. You are already judging me as being arrogant: so I can pretty much expect the same attitude here.
I think you've got me figured out wrong. I really don't want to twist anything you say. I'm simply asking what you believe. I tried to summarize it for you, with a little sarcasm , to get you to clarify it, which you did (that was easy...lol). Thank-you for clarifying it though.
Most would simply summarize their beliefs by saying: "I tend to agree with" and then state something like Arminianism, Calvinism, Westminster Confession of Faith, Heidelberg Confession, Lutheran Confession, Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, Non-denominational, etc., and then maybe say something about eschatology: Dispensationalist, Amil, Pre or Post Trib, Preterism, etc., and than perhaps clarify where they differ from that particular group or confession of faith that they most generally agree with. We all (or at least most) say we're Christian, only believe the Bible and only know the truth, so that doesn't really help much, at least not on this board...LOL And yes, we all know the scripture that says:
1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
From what I've read from your answers and clarifications, you agree with Evangelical Arminianism. That's what I was trying to bring out (expose I believe is how you put it) and to help you clarify your thinking regarding the issues of synergism vs monergism in salvation.
1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
From what I've read from your answers and clarifications, you agree with Evangelical Arminianism. That's what I was trying to bring out (expose I believe is how you put it) and to help you clarify your thinking regarding the issues of synergism vs monergism in salvation.
No hard feelings here...
I do not know what Evangelical Arminianism is, and I do not care.
Isn't trying to classify someone that same things as saying he is of Paul?
The point of the poll is to ascertain if all universalists are likeminded in regards to universal reconciliation as it would serve as a pause for discernment as well as an awareness for those that believe in Universal Reconciliation. Obviously, URers are not all likeminded in this matter.
I know I cannot convince anyone to take a step back, but mayhap the Lord will use this poll as a means for re-examination:
As it is, Psalm 127:1-2 pretty much shows that if the Lord is not working, it is vain for me to try or to continue. If URers cannot hear His words, they cannot hear mine.
I do not know what Evangelical Arminianism is, and I do not care.
Isn't trying to classify someone that same things as saying he is of Paul?
The point of the poll is to ascertain if all universalists are likeminded in regards to universal reconciliation as it would serve as a pause for discernment as well as an awareness for those that believe in Universal Reconciliation. Obviously, URers are not all likeminded in this matter.
I know I cannot convince anyone to take a step back, but mayhap the Lord will use this poll as a means for re-examination:
As it is, Psalm 127:1-2 pretty much shows that if the Lord is not working, it is vain for me to try or to continue. If URers cannot hear His words, they cannot hear mine.
Don't you think it's a little naive to think like this? We could all quote scripture and tell the other person "if the Lord is not working, it is vain for me to try or to continue". We could also respond to you with "if the Arminian ETers cannot hear His words, they cannot hear mine." But what will it accomplish by saying those things? Will you and the other Arminian ETer's benefit from it? Did you benefit from it when I put it into those terms? I don't think so. Why would you think we would?
What you were trying to expose in others (by using polls to classify someone into a particular category), I was using by way of example to expose also in you. Perhaps the Lord will use this as a means for your own self-examination of your own heart.
Seriously, listen to your self:
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Another brother made a discernment that deemed it necessary for another poll to ascertain the beliefs of Universalists here in the forum.
Don't you find this to be a little arrogant and pompous? Was this brother whom you say made (to quote you) "a discernment that deemed it necessary for another poll" also another like minded ETing Arminian with a self righteous lock on the truth? LOL....I mean really...com'on...give us a little more benefit of the doubt and try exhaling now and then.
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