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Taking other verses into account the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 is not "all-inclusive," but is part of an "inclusive disjunction proposition".
1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
So if "all men"(people), doesnt mean "all" in verse 4, then you must believe that it doesnt mean "all" in verse 1. So you are saying we should not pray for all people or give thanks for all people, but that we should only pray and give thanks for "those that believe"? ...
Or what about ...
1Th 3:12
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you
Not all men in this one either huh? Are we not to love all men? And if God intends to torture most people for everlasting, why would he tell us to love all people when that would cause us to be tortured along with them? Do you have children? If not think of the person you love most in the world ... Now imagine them being tortured ... Wouldn't that hurt you tremendously?
and again ...
1Th 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
Does this mean we should only render Good among ourselves, or to believers? Yet render evil unto evil for all others?
And yet again, and more importantly ...
Gal 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
This is the exact same sentence structure as 1 Tim 2:4, so are we to do good to all men, or only to those of the household of faith?
If you want to change one verse to say and mean something other than what it actually says then you must change the other verses as well ... The fact is we should believe what these verses are saying on the surface plain and simple. You say that would contradict the other verses that you quoted? But that is not true, as we have explained how those verses can be understood to mean exactly what they say on the surface without meaning that God will not eventually save all people.
Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 03-16-2010 at 12:14 PM..
Yeah, well, I don't think that phrase works here for you. Let's look at the word "all":
1Ti 2:1 I EXHORT therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
If you're trying to limit the term all men, you'll need to limit it to a group we are to pray for.
Jesus said to pray for our enemies:
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
It is our enemies that God desires and is willing to save. If God is willing to save our enemies, is he not also willing to save us, who believe?
A dictionary gives common usage...
I find it interesting that you think a dictionary cannot be used because it is not the word of God, but you then introduce a term used in logic/grammar studies as an alternative explanation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Whatever you believe all means, it is exclusive of "those that believe" ... Two groups of people are being referred to in this verse, "all people" and "those that believe". The way that fundamentalists read it is, "god is NOT the savior of all people, ONLY of those that believe" ... But what it actually says is that "God IS the savior of all people, ESPECIALLY those that believe". Two completely different meanings, two completely different gospels.
God bless ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
1 Timothy 2:1-4
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm
Yeah, well, I don't think that phrase works here for you. Let's look at the word "all":
1Ti 2:1 I EXHORT therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;.........to save our enemies, is he not also willing to save us, who believe?
I find it amazing that you all spend so much time and energy trying to convince anybody when it's a mute point in the grand scheme of things of UR.
_________________________________
FYI:
I was surprised today, the guy I work with brought with him a book that was written @ 1911 or 1914 and was copied written in 1918. This book was written by some religious \ history professor from Yale. (please don't ask who's quote ... am going by memory)
He wrote about the early history of the Christian Church till that time of published (1918). One of the chapters covered was UR. Again from memory, this is not new. It first appeared @ 200ad but the modern version took wider appeal in the late 1800's. The author noted that from it's beginning, UR has been held as heresy and (that as of time of publishing) is still considered it.
I know this means nothing to those who support UR, but I should see this co-worker in 2 days again, and will find the name of the book.
However, and to all a good night.....however you interpret "all"
Last edited by twin.spin; 03-16-2010 at 06:46 PM..
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I would like to see all saved, of course, but despite it's appeal I don't think UR is a viable option. If it was true would not have Jesus at least have hinted at it? But there is no such hint.
I would like to see all saved, of course, but despite it's appeal I don't think UR is a viable option. If it was true would not have Jesus at least have hinted at it? But there is no such hint.
What do you mean there was no hint?
Jesus himself prays to God the father saying that he wants people to be one with the father as he is one with the father... he says that we should love our enemies and be kind to those who hurt us.... doesn't that tell you something?
The part of the Christian theological view that bothers me is that Jesus stated that he was the image of the Father (God) so that anything Jesus did was representative of the father. Jesus showed compassion and love for all men not just those who believed him. Take the adulterous woman ... he didn't care that she had been caught in adultery. Her plight was known.. it was the religious leaders that condemned the women while they themselves were not sinless. The point Jesus tried to make is that God judges the heart while men judge the outside or actions of man. If God is the ultimate judge then there is no need for us to judge anyone.
Matthew 15:18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
If a man (or woman) claims to be right with God but yet doesn't believe that all men are worthy of redemption can he (or she) truly have love in their heart? I believe that all human beings are worthy of God's love and I have myself and my spirit as witnesses... (as well as all those who have seen the change in my life). All men will be reconciled to God. That was the purpose of Christ, to show that all men sinned and all men are the redeemed and to show the true nature of God, not the monster portrayed in the OT.
But again this is just my opinion... which I readily admit.
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