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I go to a small church with about fifty in attendance each Sunday. My pastor and his wife work other jobs outside of the church and we all know where the tithes are spent, mostly on missionaries. My previous churches were all the same way, small with working preachers. Jesus was a working preacher, He was a carpenter. I was never mentioned whether He gave it up to preach and teach so I prefer to believe He continued His outside job as well as His ministry. How many Pastors can say the same.
There are some really good churchs and then there are the apostate money grubbing greedy millionaire ministers. No preacher should be a millionaire while even one of his congregation suffers poverty. Do you know how many people can live off of 1 million dollars? Some families here in the good old USA actually live off of less than 100 dollars a year while somany have so much more and take care of none.
Every church I have ever belonged to has reached out and help every member in any way they could while the Pastors sacrifiaced of themselves. So I believe there are churches that actually reflect Christ.
I agree with you --- I think that firstborns post was targeted at those churches that are a money making organizations at the expense of the congregation.
I agree with you --- I think that firstborns post was targeted at those churches that are a money making organizations at the expense of the congregation.
Yes the little guys always get forgottenBut they are still working for Christ.
I can see all sides of the discussion and I think perhaps some heated portions are just mutual misunderstandings.
I agree with you --- I think that firstborns post was targeted at those churches that are a money making organizations at the expense of the congregation.
I agree that there is a big difference between some churches in this regard. I grew up in a small church and they barely have enough money to maintain the building. They recently replaced the 30-year-old carpet and did some other maintenance. Everyone pitched in and gave extra so they could put in a small outdoor elevator because the steps are extremely steep and there are a lot of elderly who attend there. When my Mother told me about it, I missed the simplicity of a small church.
The church I now attend built a new building with the attitude "built it and they will come" and it's not such a field of dreams IMO. We have about 450 members and a $30,000/month electric bill! We have a full-time pastor who is currently building a big house in by far, the most expensive area of town in a gated community. The land alone cost about three times the per capita income around here. Pastors deserve nice homes, so don't get me wrong, but I think if they don't have another job outside the church they shouldn't have a higher standard or living than the average member of the church. Just my opinion.
I agree,the pastor at my former church makes 80K/yr,and lives in a very nice house,a few miles way from the church,worth about 200K+ (this buys a very nice house here),all expenses paid.No outside job.
Yet he was still complaining about bills the church needed to pay,even listing exact dollar amts in the church newsletter mostly every week.
This is a big change from the way it was when I grew up there...back then,the pastor lived right across the st. from the church in a very modest house,and in case anyone needed him,they knew where to find him.
I don't know if this is the norm now or what.It seems like they feel compelled to offer a big salary,large house,etc.,all the perks..in order to entice the ministers to come here.And then they want to complain to the congregation about money.It seemed like it was being run by the gov't!
Who of you can judge rightly what church is a money making organization and what is not? Who of you can say the Lord has not rightly apportioned to one what He has chosen? Think about this long and hard. Did not Christ differentiate between the rich man and Lazarus? Does not Christ ordain some to wealth and others to less? Read the scriptures of Luke.
Luke 21 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2 And He saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3 And He said, "Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow cast in more then they all: For all these have of their abundance cast unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."
Where does Christ proclaim she should not tithe in any fashion or form? She gave all that she had to the Pharisees, whom he rightly called hypocrites, and did they not abuse the money in their time? Did they not pay 30 pieces of silver to condemn an innocent man? Did not God exhault her above the rich for giving all she could? Has Christianity become so small that we can not trust God to do that with our money that He chooses. Even God can take the works of an evil man and turn it to good. Christ saw her faith and I say this truly to you, her faith is greater then that which claims to come out of the church for the sake of saving money and onion dip.
I do not condemn Christians, but if the source of faith is scripture and in this Christ gives the glory to the poor woman why have little faith in this day? God blesses the giver for the act, not because the user may use it in error by greed, or have a large house of his own, or even to steal it. God can turn all things to good.
If I am to assume that God is all in all and thus save all, then how can I believe that God can not take the donation of a poor woman and turn it to good? A poor woman payed in His very presence and was blessed. But permit me to go deeper.
Read the parable of the talents. Do we not have three people listed here. One who is given ten talents, one who has five, and one who has one. The one took the little he was given and hid it and he was cast out. He didnt even own the talent, but it was the Master's who said he should have at least invested with intrest. Think about this the matter is much deeper than the perception of the eye.
I had foreseen the responses and now I have displayed scripturally the truth of the matter. Why remotely cry over 10 percent when the poor woman gave all that she owned in the very presence of Christ and was exceedingly blessed. What little faith we have in this day.
P.S. If this post only dealt with "money making churches" as some call it then why not make the distinction? Oh wait I missed it its called the 'modern' church and an 'expensive social club'. That must be the distinction I missed.
Last edited by Aschultz73; 03-17-2010 at 01:58 AM..
My wife donated 1000 to help the church so our members could come together. I fill the potholes every week free of charge so people dont have to ride a bumpy driveway when they come. This is the work truly that needs to be done. But then again it is so much easier to call people out and go to the home. That way while you sit inside with your onion dip, the ones truly searching who might believe wont have a public place they can go to and find Gods word. Seriously give thought to what you say. It is not I missing the point sir, it is you.
Geesh. Where do I start? When we gather before the Lord in a home, on the lawn, in a park or wherever, we are in church because we are the church. Can't say we've ever had onion dip but it sounds like it may go over well. What would you say if I told you that while we've had these gatherings, people who were not professing Christians joined us, just because they saw us and thought they'd hang out for a spell? And it was all good! These people were truly searching and didn't need a "public" place to go to hear the Word of the Lord!!! Imagine that! No...there isn't always complete order and ORGANIZATION but we do meet and gather and let the Lord lead us.
If you can call a group of people gathered together, joining in fellowship, reading the Word, sharing testimony and simply hanging out in the Lord, HIDING (your word not mine), then we must not be doing a good job at it because we are in the open, not hiding our light under a bushel..NO! Matter of fact, we were so out in the open that our home address in on the web for anyone to view. Because of this info, we've had people contact us and join us when they are in the area. Just recently a young couple from Oregon loaded up their van, packed up some food and clothes and showed up unannounced. What they needed was true fellowship and they sought it out. They didn't have much and didn't even know us but they showed up, without grand travel plans or incorporating some trip or vacation but just came as they were, trusting in the Lord. We were blessed to have met another brother and sister in the Lord.
Seriously, your use of the word "hiding" is grossly inaccurate. People KNOW where I live and gather? Can you say the same?
On another note I did find it interesting that you felt the need to announce how much money your wife gave and the works of your hands. Think I'll hold off announcing what I do as the Word tells us:"But when you give to someone in need, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you." Matthew 6:3 & 4
Pretty sure now would be a good time to use YOUR own words and tell you:
Seriously give thought to what you say.
Also...we do NOT need money to gather. A park is free of charge. A spot of grass is free as well. So is my living room. Imagine that! We use what we have an make it work. Obviously then, money is freed up and able to go to the needy and poor. We (the living church) are not restricted to giving to a church building but we can instead disperse it as the Lord leads! You disagree that we should...”give it to those we think need it, instead of trusting the servants of God and holding them accountable.” (Again, your words, not mine). But I KNOW that those who love and trust the Lord are perfectly capable to give to the poor and to those in need. Who says we are not servants of God? You? Must I be ordained to be one? Am I not trustworthy enough to help those in need? Am I not holy enough? I'm confused at your thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
Christ can not lose what is truly His or else He could not be God and not be Christ. Your assertions are excuses to hide more than they are justifications for what you believe. With all due respect come out and help the few Christians who remain. We need help facing down all this apostasy you speak of, but of course its much easier to hide and leave us to fight alone. Wake up you are taking the weaker way out.
BTW...we are not called to fight but to love and discern and be prayerful and watchmen on the wall. What you call “weak” (seeking fellowship with like believers OUTSIDE of a building you deem worthy) may just be what we are called to do by the Lord. Since you have turned this thread into a personal attack on those who choose to gather in a different way than you, I will end this by telling you that I in no way am attempting to sway you in any direction. I was simply responding to the original poster and the thread they started.
Lastly, to answer your question, no, Chehalis is not that far away from Orting. But methinks it strange that you felt it necessary to pinpoint my location. I can hear my 14 year old son saying, “Stalker status.” Not hiding here. Not in the least.
Geesh. Where do I start? When we gather before the Lord in a home, on the lawn, in a park or wherever, we are in church because we are the church. Can't say we've ever had onion dip but it sounds like it may go over well. What would you say if I told you that while we've had these gatherings, people who were not professing Christians joined us, just because they saw us and thought they'd hang out for a spell? And it was all good! These people were truly searching and didn't need a "public" place to go to hear the Word of the Lord!!! Imagine that! No...there isn't always complete order and ORGANIZATION but we do meet and gather and let the Lord lead us.
If you can call a group of people gathered together, joining in fellowship, reading the Word, sharing testimony and simply hanging out in the Lord, HIDING (your word not mine), then we must not be doing a good job at it because we are in the open, not hiding our light under a bushel..NO! Matter of fact, we were so out in the open that our home address in on the web for anyone to view. Because of this info, we've had people contact us and join us when they are in the area. Just recently a young couple from Oregon loaded up their van, packed up some food and clothes and showed up unannounced. What they needed was true fellowship and they sought it out. They didn't have much and didn't even know us but they showed up, without grand travel plans or incorporating some trip or vacation but just came as they were, trusting in the Lord. We were blessed to have met another brother and sister in the Lord.
Seriously, your use of the word "hiding" is grossly inaccurate. People KNOW where I live and gather? Can you say the same?
On another note I did find it interesting that you felt the need to announce how much money your wife gave and the works of your hands. Think I'll hold off announcing what I do as the Word tells us:"But when you give to someone in need, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you." Matthew 6:3 & 4
Pretty sure now would be a good time to use YOUR own words and tell you:
Seriously give thought to what you say.
Also...we do NOT need money to gather. A park is free of charge. A spot of grass is free as well. So is my living room. Imagine that! We use what we have an make it work. Obviously then, money is freed up and able to go to the needy and poor. We (the living church) are not restricted to giving to a church building but we can instead disperse it as the Lord leads! You disagree that we should...”give it to those we think need it, instead of trusting the servants of God and holding them accountable.” (Again, your words, not mine). But I KNOW that those who love and trust the Lord are perfectly capable to give to the poor and to those in need. Who says we are not servants of God? You? Must I be ordained to be one? Am I not trustworthy enough to help those in need? Am I not holy enough? I'm confused at your thinking.
BTW...we are not called to fight but to love and discern and be prayerful and watchmen on the wall. What you call “weak” (seeking fellowship with like believers OUTSIDE of a building you deem worthy) may just be what we are called to do by the Lord. Since you have turned this thread into a personal attack on those who choose to gather in a different way than you, I will end this by telling you that I in no way am attempting to sway you in any direction. I was simply responding to the original poster and the thread they started.
Lastly, to answer your question, no, Chehalis is not that far away from Orting. But methinks it strange that you felt it necessary to pinpoint my location. I can hear my 14 year old son saying, “Stalker status.” Not hiding here. Not in the least.
Well since you always seem to want to point out the church is of the Devil I thought you should come and prove it. If you hold truth to your claim then why not. I read almost every post so that you mentioned it in a thread you left it there openly. If you dont want someone to know, perhaps dont post it.
I stand by what I have said and if the church is what you claim, come and state your position. I will openly welcome your voice and if you think it was a personal attack you fail to understand the difference between judgement and conviction.
In short back up your claim. If the devil is in my church come and show it and I will gladly come out. But if not, then your claim is false and thus is weak against my arguement.
Do not think I came to insult, but to illustrate which I have rightly done. My offer to you stands.
Wow! I've never been invited to one's church in such a loving way. Thanx but no thanx. Think I'll stick to our ragtag group and call it good. You, however, should brush up on your manners next time you attempt to invite one to your place of worship. You know what they say about a little honey....food for thought. Got love? Night.
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But they are still working for Christ.
