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You sure have taken a personal offense to what I've posted. Interestingly enough, what I posted was not a direct attack on you, or your place of worship. But for some reason you have taken it as a PERSONAL offense and I'm beginning to wonder (by the angry tone you've exhibited) if what I've said may have pricked your spirit. Brother, on the contrary, I do not feel insulted (by your posts) in the slightest but I will admit that I instead find this VERY fascinating. Would it be better (for you) if I rolled over (for the sake of you getting a good night's sleep) and told you that...you're right and I am wrong? ...You're the winner...I'm the loser... You're greater and I am the lesser?? Does that help you feel better? If so, then...there ya go. Yay.
Umm...pretty sure that the post where I mentioned the city I resided in was on a COMPLETELY different FORUM. Specifically, it was on the Washington State forum where I was replying to another poster who was seeking info about the local area. I only mentioned that it seemed strange for you to state my specific area NOT because I “sweat” others knowing where I reside but because it seems somewhat shady that you would bring it up without any reason. In that post you did not even mention inviting me to your church. Instead, and only after I stated that it seemed strange, did you invite me to your place of worship. You must have MISSED the part of my post where I was VERY CLEAR that I am in no way hiding my whereabouts and even went as far as stating that it is out there in the open (residential address is online) for all to know. Remember? Perhaps the point I made about NOT HIDING will ring a bell. Trust me, I take no issue with people knowing what city I reside in and in saying that, I should correct you in that I live not in Chehalis but Centralia. Need a contact number? (360) 989-9382. How's that for hiding? Also...you mention that you read almost every post? Wow...all I can say is that you have a lot of time on your hands. Must be nice.
For you throw out such a cold “invite” to come to your church building is like asking me to hold my breath underwater for 5 minutes. You will NEVER get someone to come there with that attitude and lack of love. Let's be real. I sure hope that you are not the “norm” at your place of worship cuz I will tell you now that people will run in the opposite direction to get away from that mess. You'll only spook people away. Fruit of the Spirit comes to mind here. Got fruit?
By your tone and admittance, this has become an argument that is between you and yourself. Read your own words. Your use of the words: weak, hiding, argument, etc., confirms my point. Instead of arguing, it might be prudent of you to simply read what others are sharing about their walk and allow them that moment to share where they are coming from. It won't hurt you (or your place of worship) a bit. It is well known that when one is quick to point fingers, call names and accuse, it is THEY who are GUILTY of the very thing they accuse others of. Sometimes, sitting back and listening is is GOOD THING.
Again...you admit that this a has become an argument and attempt to illustrate a point but then offer me a creepy invite that seems more like a set-up than anything. I question your TRUE motives. Instead, why don't you tell us the name of your church and we can “come as we are” when we decide, should we decide. And IF, we find errors(s) in the teaching then we can go DIRECTLY to the teacher in question, quietly, as we are instructed to in Matthew 18: 15-17, and talk it over.
Honestly, to use the basic model and outline of the early church is neither harmful nor divisive. It may not be contemporary or “modern” but for many, it works! Selah! And its a global phenomena! Aschultz, sometimes it is the simple and weak (your words, not mine) that will move mountains. Scripture that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the Lord, it will all shake out.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sigh you are making more out of this then what is because you feel offended. Come prove your point or dont. Either way you cant if you come to my church. It is not of the devil and thus the complete whole you place all churches under being of the devil is false. The offer is simple come and prove it. I have a wife and children so honestly I have no need for a "creepy invite". The fact remains if I can prove your devil claims as false then your theory no longer stands. I know I can, the question is can you prove yours in my church. You have the burden of proof.
Or else believe the modern church is of the devil. Either way the invite again today still stands. Prove what you have said or I can only conclude it has no foundation.
Two or more agreeing in His name is a wealth of fellowship of the body of Christ. Many of us have been very isolated, even when we went seeking a kindred soul at the stage shows of Babylon. The failure is to identify Mystical Babylon and distinguish that from the Ecclesia. In no way am I saying that truth doesn't matter; but, Jesus seems to relate to us on a basis other than having every jot and tittle of His Law properly comprehended by us. I've seen many with differing ideas on various particulars of doctrine who yet have the presence of Jesus in them. When I came into the Lord and He entered into me, what understanding I had was what I'd been raised in. I had never read the Bible for myself. Not only what people believe but how they meet is very important. Yet again, there are many differences here that Jesus tolerates. I believe He would lead us on into His truth more if we had greater hunger, humility and love for others.
I don't know how much you get around; but, saying we shouldn't leave Institutional Christianity betrays a lack of understanding how deep the present widespread apostasy is. Where was "mainstream" Christianity for hundreds of years while the authorities of what claimed to be The church judged us heretics, putting the Scripture portions in our native languages (which was proof of our heresy) rolled up under our chin, lit it and burned us at the stake? One reason people are so gullible is they've been indoctrinated into popular religion from childhood. They've never read the Bible for themselves or taught it is our authority rather than other men. Most don't know how to implement the authority of Scripture by using concordances to prove what is or is not written and examine the original that translators often hide.
When you say we should stay in the demoninational churches and, "remove the falsehood and strengthen that which remains," I believe you are speaking mainly from a theoretical position while not recognizing the facts. Almost all in the official sects have other mediators: either a priest performing a mass or a pastor presiding over a streamlined mass with the homily enlarged and called a sermon. In this "lecture structure meeting," to offer any word, even from the Lord, is considered "out of order." Just try to obey God and "exhort one another" about 11:30 Sunday morning and you'll find out fast enough what else the ushers are there for. It's hard not to make fun of your suggestion to try to correct these bastions of traditions of men. Like, when was the last time you saw a time on the order of service that says, "Freely exercised ministry of the body of Christ, one to another from 11:45" or something similar? Jesus didn't and I can promise you won't change these bureachratic systems of men honoring other men. The Reformation came and the Roman church is still here. The Pastor with his three songs and a sermon, an enemy of every member participation, will no doubt be with us 'til the end of the age. The audiences in those groups are used to being treated like they don't have anything. Whatever gifts and blessings they started with they have suppressed for so many years it is unlikely you can budge more than a friend or two, if you've been there long enough to have any real fellowship with anybody. Go to your houses and meet in the usual way of the Church, a "round table structure." Don't waste your time and effort trying to change those who cling to dead images. It's best to leave without making trouble. Have your shoes shod with the gospel of peace.
Just as Jesus's coming here and speaking the words His Father gave Him, His Father confirming the word with signs following, led to His illegal torture and execution primarily through what was the church of that day, similar is the tale many of us can tell. Whether persecution in the world or in demoninational churches, I have many experiences, some even fairly recent, that I wish I had more time to tell. It's rather strange to me how many productions in various media show and tell of persecutions of Christians in other countries, and by no means is there the exposure that this deserves, but there is close to never anything about what many of us have undergone here in the USA.
Im not sure where you are going with this. Are you wanting to admit there are apostate churches? Does the originial OP acknowldege a difference? No it does not, because by its definition all churches are apostate. But to imply that all are apostate then one must indeed be able to attend every single church and since we know this cant be done, then what do we know by scripture. That a remnant remains to the Lord and he is always working. This means there are churches that remain.
I stand by what I have said. The Lord is yet working and no where does scripture support the error of numerical absolutes spoken of in this opening thread.
And thus I continue the challenge come to my church and if you can prove that my church is a "expensive social club" full of "innocently sinning pastors" then I concur that the theory of all churches being apostate and in fact being "expensive social clubs" full of "innocently sinning pastors" is correct. I will also concur the devil wants all "modern" churches to stand being 501.3c tax orginizations.
But if it cant be proven then everything of the concept of the remnant working in the church stands and the whole post falls apart. The burden lies on the person making the claim not on me.
How obvious does it have to be????? Before the blind can see?
How interesting those who claim to not be blind are told by Christ that because they say they can see their sin is upon them. This is why no one by scripture is ignorant of sin, but hey keep running with that one.
How interesting those who claim to not be blind are told by Christ that because they say they can see their sin is upon them. This is why no one by scripture is ignorant of sin, but hey keep running with that one.
I think you are missing the point here , i for certain was blind even though i was well versed in the scriptures right up to my eyeballs , yet i did not know i was blind until the Lord opened my eyes to see that i was . Can you say the same , or have you seen and believed everything correctly without error from the moment you believed ?.
. . . . It is written of our lord that whenever he did preach in the synagogue early on in his ministry, it was to the chagrin of them who were therein, even the scribes and the pharisees. And they wondered after his strange doctrine, and after his mighty works, and would have killed him ... Never again did he set foot in them thereafter, but taught in homes and on the hill tops and in the fields.
...
Selah ...
Uh, where do U get UR 411? Some of what U say is k. but that bit about Jesus & the synagogues and fields and stuff is nonsense no matter how U dress it up in KJV sounding jargon.
Proof? Jesus in front of the High Priest [Mt 18.19-20]:
Quote:
The High Priest therefore questioned Jesus about His disciples, and about His teaching. Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.
It's one thing to talk in KJV and another to stick to what it actually says.
A good book to read is "Pagan Christianity" it talks about this very subject and I found it very interesting read and opened my heart to many things of/on this subject !!
And as far as tithing..... I believe strongly this is between the individual and the Lord.
Good response. Viola and Barna (Pagan Xistianity) are pretty sloppy in their history but the point really is to help people realize that whatever God is doing 2day, it isn't "church as usual". In fact, in Barna's book, Revolution, his point isn't that churchgoers and leaders need to change how they're doing "church"—his point is that his polls show that hundreds of thousands of churchgoers have already left their churches. And all Barna does is ask, "So—what are U going 2 do about that?"
And UR point about the tithe is sound—people think that since Jesus fulfilled the Law (and it's no longer held against us) that the tithe is OUT. ("Thank g-d for my wallet!") And as far as the tithe being Law, it is out.... but as far as it's being a wise spiritual principle to honor and glorify our Father's never ceasing faithfulness in His provision for all for us, the tithe is still valid. It's like Mom trying to explain to a teenager why it's smart for the kid to thank his parents every so often... The parents don't really want the kid's gratitude, but they want the kid to be grateful since God can bring greater blessing into a grateful heart than He can into a selfish heart. It's not Law to tithe, but our opportunity to honor our Father's abundant care for us. We don't have to, but it helps open our hearts to others and to God when we do.
Since it's come into the discussion I wanted to mention that recently I came across a critique of Barna and Viola's Pagan Christianity. At first I assumed it would be slanted and not fairly representing the book—but then I noticed it had been written by request from Mark Driscoll ("Preaching Pastor" at Mars Hill Church.) IMHO, that made it worth a more careful look.
In fact, this paper hits a few things I felt are poorly presented in some of their various works. In Pagan Christianity, Barna & Viola seem to perpetuate the very thing they claim they're trying to eliminate—a structured, human designed "church". Except for changing its name from "institutional church" to "organic church", they're still focused on re-establishing yet another "design" for what "church" is supposed to look like—but this time it's according to their priorities. As soon as "reformers" begin arguing that the nature of the Church which Jesus builds lies in issues such as "big buildings" vs. "homes", "pulpits and pastors" vs. "no leaders and no religious furniture", they've simply started building their own "institutional" church. Give it time and success and their organizational form will become the next "traditional church". This path is useless for seeing the building up of the Body of Christ in our world today.
The True Church—that living organism which is the very Presence of Jesus Christ in this world—cannot and will never fit into anyone's "definitions" of "What does 'church' look like?" But at the same time, this Living Church is not sitting in opposition or contradiction to the various church-forms that people develop on a merely human level. The point isn't we need a better "church form" but that we need to stop concerning ourselves with the "form" of our churches at all and instead begin concerning ourselves with its function: that is, expressing the Person of Jesus Christ Who lives in and through us; this life of Union with Christ is unmistakably displayed by those who lovingly and sacrificially put the needs of their neighbors and those other human beings who (divinely) come within their influence every day over their own needs and desires.
Anyway—for those interested in a useful critique (drawn largely from a "Professor Witherington", Church Historian at Asbury Theological Cemetery) I've included the link to this less-than-perfect but still interesting paper:
The True Church—that living organism which is the very Presence of Jesus Christ in this world -- cannot and will never fit into anyone's "definitions" of "What does 'church' look like?" But at the same time, this Living Church is not sitting in opposition or contradiction to the various church-forms that people develop. The point isn't we need a better "church form" but that we need to stop concerning ourselves with the "form" of our churches and begin concerning ourselves with its function: that is, lovingly and sacrificially putting higher than our own interests the needs of our neighbor next door and of those human beings who (divinely) come within our influence every day.
This is so true .....
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Review of Pagan Xianity
