UR passages addressed exegetically (lordship, Gospel, doctrine, church)

[sciotamicks]

Let's begin with a definition:

Universalism is the teaching that God, through the atonement of Jesus, will ultimately bring reconciliation between God and all people throughout history. This reconciliation will occur regardless of whether they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savoir during their lifetime. As with any doctrine, there are many varieties of universalism. For example, there is the belief in Conditional Immortality, which holds that an opportunity will be given after death for the acceptance of Christ, that acceptance will mean salvation, while rejection will be followed by extinction. There are, however, certain ideas common to every form of universalism: they all view the character of God as animated by sheer benevolence rather than by a holy love.

Belief in universal salvation is almost as old as Christianity itself is associated with early Gnostic teachers. The first clearly universalist writings, however, date from the Greek church fathers, most notably Clement of Alexandria, his student Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa. Universalism was taught in the School that Origen presided over at Alexandria in the extreme form that all fallen beings, not excluding the Devil and his angels, who do not repent in this world, shall pass through prolonged chastisement in the world to come. In the end, through these sufferings and the instruction of superior spirits, they will undergo a change and be brought to bliss. Origen's views were strongly opposed by Augustine of Hippo and were condemned by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 543). At the Reformation the sect known as Anabaptists adopted this view as regards both men and devils, and John Calvin wrote a tract condemning it.

This doctrine is congenial to human nature. Most unbelievers think that when someone dies they go to heaven. What do people usually say when they lose a loved one? "We know they're in a better place now." This doctrine goes back to what the serpent had to say to our first parents: "Ye shall not surely die." God says that sin leads to death, but we don't want to believe that, we'd rather believe the serpent.

Universalists all quote Scripture texts in support of their views, and by the manipulation of texts removed from their context, they make out a plausible case for the positions they hold. There are many verses that use "all" and "world" in relation to redemption. When looking at these verses, we must keep in mind the primary rule of hermeneutics, the "analogy of faith" - the rule that Scripture is to interpret Scripture. This means that no part of Scripture can be interpreted in such a way as to render it in conflict with what is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture.

In this thread, I will exegetically usurp each and every verse and passage the Universalist uses to promote and support the foundation of their paradigm. This is not a war against UR and ET, nor is this is persecutive plight against the paradigm itself, however this is a false doctrine, and must be exposed here at City Data where it appears so prevalent amongst young believers and non-believers alike searching for peace and tranquility in Jesus Christ and find this erred message of universal salvation. I care for each and every one of you that holds to this position, and it behooves me to bring up these verse and passages that many of you come to very outlandish conclusions based on your contextual removal, humanistic philosophies, secular liturgy, non-Biblical sourcing and biased literary works to manufacture weight and foundation for the paradigm.

Some of you may like to respond and direct your anger towards me for this movement against your view, but I wish no ills on any of you, and most likely will not engage in a debate with any of you. I consider many of you to be in the church, just misguided. You may say the same thing about me, however, it is evident that UR is considered apart from the church at large, but for those with belief in Christ as God in the Flesh, IMO, puts you in our church. This thread is solely for the purpose of addressing each verse that I have read, seen, and scratched my head over just how one removes such beauty and prose from our apostles and prophets, and those who twist these God breathed passages into distortion, only to be corrected, for the hundredth, if not thousandth time, now by a lowly layman chef and musician such as myself. My next post, will address the first verse in question.

Stay tuned.

May Christ dwell in all of your hearts.

[sciotamicks]

Colossians 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Is Paul teaching universalism, namely, that all creatures will eventually be saved and none will be punished forever?

Does this mean that one day God will reconcile to himself all unbelievers who have ever lived and even the devil himself along with his cohorts?

No it is not.

What is this verse saying then?

Colossians 3:10-11 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul is describing Christians as people who have "put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him." Then verse 11 begins with the word "where" to show that what he is about to say is limited in its scope to the sphere of this renewed humanity he was just asking about in verse 10.

He says, "Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man; but Christ is all, and in all." Now if you took the sentence "Christ is all and in all" by itself, you might say that it taught universalism: "Christ is all and in all human beings without exception." But we know that is not what he means, because the verse begins with "where" - that is here in the sphere of the church; "here" - in the new humanity that Christ is creating, He is all and in all - another direct correlation to that of Christ and His deity.

This is the way we are to understand Colossians 1:20. Look how the paragraph is organized. The scope of verse 15-17 is all creation. The whole universe is in view. And the point is that Christ is preeminent over all creation, because He made it and he holds it all together.

But then in verses 18-21, the focus shifts and the scope is no longer the whole universe but the new creation, the church. Notice how verse 18 turns from creation to the church: "He is the head of the body, the church." in this context of the church, we read verse 20, that "he will reconcile all things to himself in heaven and on earth." The "all things" in verse 20 should be limited the same way the "all" in 3:11 was limited - to the church only.

When you receive Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord, He, God the Son, becomes all in all with you.

May Christ dwell in all of your hearts.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Colossians 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Is Paul teaching universalism, namely, that all creatures will eventually be saved and none will be punished forever?

Does this mean that one day God will reconcile to himself all unbelievers who have ever lived and even the devil himself along with his cohorts?

No it is not.

What is this verse saying then?

Colossians 3:10-11 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul is describing Christians as people who have "put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him." Then verse 11 begins with the word "where" to show that what he is about to say is limited in its scope to the sphere of this renewed humanity he was just asking about in verse 10.

He says, "Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man; but Christ is all, and in all." Now if you took the sentence "Christ is all and in all" by itself, you might say that it taught universalism: "Christ is all and in all human beings without exception." But we know that is not what he means, because the verse begins with "where" - that is here in the sphere of the church; "here" - in the new humanity that Christ is creating, He is all and in all - another direct correlation to that of Christ and His deity.

This is the way we are to understand Colossians 1:20. Look how the paragraph is organized. The scope of verse 15-17 is all creation. The whole universe is in view. And the point is that Christ is preeminent over all creation, because He made it and he holds it all together.

But then in verses 18-21, the focus shifts and the scope is no longer the whole universe but the new creation, the church. Notice how verse 18 turns from creation to the church: "He is the head of the body, the church." in this context of the church, we read verse 20, that "he will reconcile all things to himself in heaven and on earth." The "all things" in verse 20 should be limited the same way the "all" in 3:11 was limited - to the church only.

When you receive Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord, He, God the Son, becomes all in all with you.

May Christ dwell in all of your hearts.

I disagree. It makes no sense to me to say that it means "ALL CHURCH THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" Does that make sense to you?

Also, you claim that the focus shifts but then we see in verse 21: This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Is Paul switching focus back to a broad view here but conveniently narrowed his focus in verse 20? Because in verse 18 there is also "he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy." So is that EVERYTHING or just CHURCH EVERYTHING?

Those are just a few things that came to mind when reading through your post.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

I disagree. It makes no sense to me to say that it means "ALL CHURCH THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" Does that make sense to you?

Also, you claim that the focus shifts but then we see in verse 21: This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Is Paul switching focus back to a broad view here but conveniently narrowed his focus in verse 20? Because in verse 18 there is also "he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy." So is that EVERYTHING or just CHURCH EVERYTHING?

Those are just a few things that came to mind when reading through your post.

Kat,

Who are the dead of Christ, the firstborn? Israel.
Who is the body? The Church.

You mean verse 23 right about where the gospel had been preached? This is one of the very verses that support the Olivet Discourse fulfillment, which doesn't have anything to do with the subject of what he was addressing.

I think you have misunderstood the post and misplaced the various themes. I suggest you read it again.

[svenM]

16 for in Him were created the whole (ta panta), the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth – the visible and the unseen, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities, the whole (ta panta) through Him and in Him have been created. 17 And He is before all, and the whole (ta panta) in Him combine. 18 And He is the head the body of the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that should be in all things He preeminent. 19 For in Him thought well all the fullness to dwell; 20 and through Him to reconcile the whole (ta panta) to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by Him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

Col. 1:16-20, Apostolic Interlinear translation

I do not see how 'the whole' is limited to the "church" here, when you refer to Chapter 3, is it not you that twist verses, something you accuse the universalists to do?

also see here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/9332511-post187.html

[sciotamicks]

SvenM,

Maybe you should read chapter 3 again?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

and most likely will not engage in a debate with any of you.

Not surprising since it's not your words anyway:
Here's the link
Universalism?, Colossians 1:20

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Not surprising since it's not your words anyway:
Here's the link
Universalism?, Colossians 1:20

Did I not source it? I apologize......among other works. The whole purpose of not debating it :s

[sciotamicks]

I will be sourcing many works, but the main ones I will be using are:

Exegetical and linguistics of the Greek New Testament
Reign of Christ Sermons - David Green, Sam Frost, Michael Sullivan
Berean Bible Sermons - David Curtis, Scott Harms
Don Hewey
Edward Fudge - Various
Edward Hassert
Todd Beal - Old Testament Parsing Guide
John R. Kohlenberger III - Greek-English Concordance to the New Testament and the Hebrew-English Concordance to the Old Testament
Don K. Preston - Various
The Pensacola Orthodox Preterist Baptist Assembly and their sermons

That's it for now. I will revise as I go along. Remember, this is just for informational purposes, and I don't wish to debate with any of you regarding this. This is mainly for those coming to this site and seeing the UR paradigm use these verses, and they can make the decision whether it is biblical, or not.

P.S. Since there is only a limited number of verses that UR uses for their primary and secondary foundations, this thread will eventually go to the archives, so don't fret too much UR

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Colossians 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Is Paul teaching universalism, namely, that all creatures will eventually be saved and none will be punished forever?

Does this mean that one day God will reconcile to himself all unbelievers who have ever lived and even the devil himself along with his cohorts?

No it is not.

What is this verse saying then?

Colossians 3:10-11 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul is describing Christians as people who have "put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him." Then verse 11 begins with the word "where" to show that what he is about to say is limited in its scope to the sphere of this renewed humanity he was just asking about in verse 10.

He says, "Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man; but Christ is all, and in all." Now if you took the sentence "Christ is all and in all" by itself, you might say that it taught universalism: "Christ is all and in all human beings without exception." But we know that is not what he means, because the verse begins with "where" - that is here in the sphere of the church; "here" - in the new humanity that Christ is creating, He is all and in all - another direct correlation to that of Christ and His deity.

This is the way we are to understand Colossians 1:20. Look how the paragraph is organized. The scope of verse 15-17 is all creation. The whole universe is in view. And the point is that Christ is preeminent over all creation, because He made it and he holds it all together.

But then in verses 18-21, the focus shifts and the scope is no longer the whole universe but the new creation, the church. Notice how verse 18 turns from creation to the church: "He is the head of the body, the church." in this context of the church, we read verse 20, that "he will reconcile all things to himself in heaven and on earth." The "all things" in verse 20 should be limited the same way the "all" in 3:11 was limited - to the church only.

When you receive Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord, He, God the Son, becomes all in all with you.

May Christ dwell in all of your hearts.

Dear sciotamicks,
Colossians 1:20 is about the future day when God is going to reconcile all in the heavens and all on the earth making peace through the blood of Christ's cross.

Col 1:21 is all about the church being reconciled NOW: "And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles"

So the 1:20 verse cannot be about the church being reconciled. Reconciliation has to do with enmity. The church is not at enmity to God. The church is at peace with God, you know, reconciled NOW.

So 1:20 is about all who are at enmity to God apart from the church who will, in the future, be at peace with God and that number happens to be ALL in the heavens and ALL on the earth outside the Church who will be reconciled in the future.