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You were doing great until you got to this part.
The Jewish Circumcision believers DO REMAIN ON THE EARTH. So you are correct on that point. But your are incorrect that that applies to the uncircumcision believers. We "meet the Lord in the air." We do not remain on the earth like the bride composed of Circumcision believers. The Circumcision believers never meet the Lord in the air.
Okay... where are you getting this? I thought that neither Jew nor Greek, circumcision or uncircumcision profited for anything.
Also I am not denying that we meet the Lord in the air, I am saying we return to earth afterward since this is what the word "to meet" means.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Nor should it. That secret was reserved for later revelation such as we putting on a celestial body to equip us to live among the celestials. It is in Colossians and Ephesians where we are taken beyond the earth.
Perhaps you could go more in depth on this because I don't see the relevance and I'm sure you meant something by this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The blessings of the Uncircumcision believers are all "in spirit" not "in flesh." Christ will later return to the earth and rule on the earth for 1000 years then the new earth. While Christ is down here in flesh and bones we will be with the Lord in spirit during that time among the celestials as the body of Christ believers.
This is a fine theory, but it doesn't really line up with the word "to meet" as I explained it. I also don't see why there needs to be a period where Messianic Jews are physically ruled by a physical Jesus.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
1 - The Lord comes to the earth but is above it.
2 - After the dead rise first, we who are alive go to meet him in the air.
3 - We are then transported into the Kingdom of the Son (Col.1:13) where that realm is in the heavens: Phi 3:20 For our realm is inherent (belonging) in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Where we will be seated with Christ: Eph 2:6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
This is quite interesting, if you provide some links on it, I'll consider your view.
Being an Amilleniumist, the rapture is part of the Last Day; when with a loud command all the dead (those in Christ and those condemned) will rise and join up with those living in the air to meet the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 The believers (on his right) will be with the Lord for ever, the unbelievers (those on his left) will be damned for ever.
The word 'rapture' is a theological term for the event which is described in the Bible. The first mention in the New Testament of this event we call the rapture is from Jesus Christ Himself in John 14:1-3.
John 14:1-3 ''Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2) ''In My Fathers house (Heaven) are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3) ''And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.''
This passage is expanded upon in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 'But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.'
Concerning the two passages shown above, C. I. Scofield wrote...
quote
(14:3) As a part of this discourse, which has been of comfort to the Church throughout the centuries, the Lord gives a promise of His personal return for His own people, a doctrine that is expanded by the Apostle Paul in 1Th. 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is to be distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His Kingdom (Rev.19:11-16).
unquote
(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for John 14:3, p. 1146).
The rapture, the catching up of the church into Heaven, the event which terminates the dispensation of the Church, is further mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 'Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.'
The word RAPTURE is from the Latin word RAPTURO which in the Greek is called HARPAGESOMETHA or HARPAZO which means to seize or carry off--caught up. The rapture.
The rapture brings the church-age to a close and transfers the church into heaven prior to and for the duration of the Tribulation. The church is found in Heaven in Revelation 19:7-9.
Revelation 19:7-9 ''Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride (the church) has made herself ready (by way of the judgment seat of Christ. 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12)8) And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9) And he said to me, ''Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb' '' (Jesus Christ).
C. I. Scofield further wrote concernng the rapture and relating it to ''the day of the Lord'' mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:8...
quote
(1:8) The expression ''the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,'' identified with ''the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'' (v. 7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as ''the day of the Lord Jesus'' (1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14), ''the day of Jesus Christ'' (Phil. 1:6), and ''the day of Christ'' (Phil. 1:10; 2:16). (''The day of Christ'' in 2 Th. 2:2 should be rendered ''the day of the Lord.'') ''The day of Christ'' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture and in contrast with the expression ''the day of the Lord'' (cp. Isa. 2:12, marg.; Joel 1:15, note; Rev. 19:19, note), which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints (Zeph. 3:8-20)
unquote
(New Scofield Reference Edition. Footnote for 1 Cor. 1:8, p. 1233.)
A proper understanding of the dispensational nature of God's plan concerning man underscores the necessity of the rapture prior to the Tribulation. God has separate programs for the church and for Israel. The age of Israel still has seven years left to it and which will be fulfilled during the Tribulation. The age of Israel was interrupted for the Church-age. And the Church-age must be terminated before the Tribulation can begin.
Those interested may wish to see my thread on dispensations for further information;
Originally Posted by Eusebius You were doing great until you got to this part. The Jewish Circumcision believers DO REMAIN ON THE EARTH. So you are correct on that point. But your are incorrect that that applies to the uncircumcision believers. We "meet the Lord in the air." We do not remain on the earth like the bride composed of Circumcision believers. The Circumcision believers never meet the Lord in the air.
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Okay... where are you getting this? I thought that neither Jew nor Greek, circumcision or uncircumcision profited for anything.
Also I am not denying that we meet the Lord in the air, I am saying we return to earth afterward since this is what the word "to meet" means.
As to your first response above, the "neither Jew nor Greek" is in the body of Christ believers and it also says "neither slave nor free" neither male nor female." That is only in the body of Christ. How could there be disparities within the one body? But among the Circumcision believers under Peter, James and John there are these disparities.
We know from the Scriptures that the Israelite believers under Peter will remain on the earth and during the 1000 year age and new earth age they will be subjecting the nations to God's plan and purpose.
At the same time the believers of the nations with a few Jews mixed in comprising the body of Christ will be out amongst the celestial regions doing Ephesians 1:9,10 where we will be heading up all in the heavens (the vast interstellar reaches of speace) in Christ.
By the very definition of the word "meet" which you gave and which I was really delighted to read, in this instance, we meet the Lord in the air and He takes us into His realm among the celestials. During a span of 7 years while we and Christ are among the celestials, the believers Jews will have 3 1/2 years of peace with the antichrist. Then he will go after them with a vengeance for the latter 3 1/2 years. It is at the end of that 7 year period that Christ will physically come back to earth and despatch the antichrist and make war. We however will remain among the celestials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius Nor should it. That secret was reserved for later revelation such as we putting on a celestial body to equip us to live among the celestials. It is in Colossians and Ephesians where we are taken beyond the earth.
Quote:
Perhaps you could go more in depth on this because I don't see the relevance and I'm sure you meant something by this.
The secret is cumulative, not all at once. It spanned many years of Paul's ministry. Paul could not give out the full destiny of the believers of the nations until Israel was fully set aside. When set aside it was then that Paul took us beyond the surley bounds of earth and revealed God's plan among the celestials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius The blessings of the Uncircumcision believers are all "in spirit" not "in flesh." Christ will later return to the earth and rule on the earth for 1000 years then the new earth. While Christ is down here in flesh and bones we will be with the Lord in spirit during that time among the celestials as the body of Christ believers.
Quote:
This is a fine theory, but it doesn't really line up with the word "to meet" as I explained it. I also don't see why there needs to be a period where Messianic Jews are physically ruled by a physical Jesus.
He will come like they saw Him leave "feel me and see that a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye perceive Me having." Being Jews they will need to see the nail prints etc.
Even thought they get Him in flesh we actually have a closer fellowship with Him in spirit.
Remember in 2 Kings 5 when Gehazi went to Naaman? He thought he was doing this in secret but while Elisha's physical body remained home he was in spirit watching Gehazi take from Naaman.
While Christ is on the earth, in spirit He will be with us.
And did not Paul even say:
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
Quote:
:
Originally Posted by Eusebius 1 - The Lord comes to the earth but is above it. 2 - After the dead rise first, we who are alive go to meet him in the air. 3 - We are then transported into the Kingdom of the Son (Col.1:13) where that realm is in the heavens: Phi 3:20 For our realm is inherent (belonging) in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Where we will be seated with Christ: Eph 2:6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
Quote:
This is quite interesting, if you provide some links on it, I'll consider your view.
You'd have to get ahold of some Unsearchable Riches magazines available through Concordant Publishing or concordant.org
Here is something: Snatched Away, by Donald G Hayter (http://www.gtft.org/Library/hayter/SnatchedAway.htm - broken link)
If you are a literist and will not believe unless the letter of the law says, then the bible says that the letter of the law kills faith......But if you know the father who sent Jesus than you will accept that The Father sent Jesus,.... and Jesus will sent his Spirit where all truth is given...... The only rapture form on the bible is for those people who believe in the rapture of the Woman Clothed in the Sun IS THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD IN THE EARTH,... in Revelations 12:6......``And the women fled into wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days``.... You must follow the woman through the lead of the Spirit of God for 1290 days of the rapture..............In the Book of Daniel 12: 11-13.......``the abomination that maketh the desolation set up there shall be 1290 days..... Blessed is he that waitheth and cometh to the 1335 days ......... but go thou thy way till the end for thou shalt rest and stand in thy lot at the end of the days`````........ What is the adomination that maketh the desolation?.... it is divisions against the church and religion that will martyr the Children of God and murder thousands of people.........Why is it blessed to wait 1335 days when it should be over by 1290 days? Can you wait 40 more days for the Lord God to sweep up after the Second coming and the resserection of the Body of Christ to be established..........You will not recieve this unless you humble yourself and bless the Father who sent Jesus
Google search this! Paul letters - The fake epistles!
Blessings...
Its already weighed and is in perfect balance.
And Paul was chosen by God to reveal the doctrines of the church-age. Paul was given a full endorsement by Peter.
2 Peter 3:15-16 'And regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
If you are a literist and will not believe unless the letter of the law says, then the bible says that the letter of the law kills faith......But if you know the father who sent Jesus than you will accept that The Father sent Jesus,.... and Jesus will sent his Spirit where all truth is given...... The only rapture form on the bible is for those people who believe in the rapture of the Woman Clothed in the Sun IS THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD IN THE EARTH,... in Revelations 12:6......``And the women fled into wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days``.... You must follow the woman through the lead of the Spirit of God for 1290 days of the rapture..............In the Book of Daniel 12: 11-13.......``the abomination that maketh the desolation set up there shall be 1290 days..... Blessed is he that waitheth and cometh to the 1335 days ......... but go thou thy way till the end for thou shalt rest and stand in thy lot at the end of the days`````........ What is the adomination that maketh the desolation?.... it is divisions against the church and religion that will martyr the Children of God and murder thousands of people.........Why is it blessed to wait 1335 days when it should be over by 1290 days? Can you wait 40 more days for the Lord God to sweep up after the Second coming and the resserection of the Body of Christ to be established..........You will not recieve this unless you humble yourself and bless the Father who sent Jesus
I think you are confusing the snatching away of the believers of the nations with the earthly allotment of the Circumcision. We of the nations have nothing to with with what you wrote above. That is for the Israelite believers.
As to your first response above, the "neither Jew nor Greek" is in the body of Christ believers and it also says "neither slave nor free" neither male nor female." That is only in the body of Christ. How could there be disparities within the one body? But among the Circumcision believers under Peter, James and John there are these disparities.
We know from the Scriptures that the Israelite believers under Peter will remain on the earth and during the 1000 year age and new earth age they will be subjecting the nations to God's plan and purpose.
At the same time the believers of the nations with a few Jews mixed in comprising the body of Christ will be out amongst the celestial regions doing Ephesians 1:9,10 where we will be heading up all in the heavens (the vast interstellar reaches of speace) in Christ.
By the very definition of the word "meet" which you gave and which I was really delighted to read, in this instance, we meet the Lord in the air and He takes us into His realm among the celestials. During a span of 7 years while we and Christ are among the celestials, the believers Jews will have 3 1/2 years of peace with the antichrist. Then he will go after them with a vengeance for the latter 3 1/2 years. It is at the end of that 7 year period that Christ will physically come back to earth and despatch the antichrist and make war. We however will remain among the celestials.
...maybe you don't understand what the definition of that word truly means? It means we cannot go out to the celestials. We must return to earth because that is the original destination of the person we were meeting.
I'll admit that I see what you are telling me to be a load of garbage, (I have absolutely no idea how you could reach this conclusion from scripture?) but I'll still look into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The secret is cumulative, not all at once. It spanned many years of Paul's ministry. Paul could not give out the full destiny of the believers of the nations until Israel was fully set aside. When set aside it was then that Paul took us beyond the surley bounds of earth and revealed God's plan among the celestials.
Right...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
He will come like they saw Him leave "feel me and see that a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye perceive Me having." Being Jews they will need to see the nail prints etc.
Even thought they get Him in flesh we actually have a closer fellowship with Him in spirit.
Remember in 2 Kings 5 when Gehazi went to Naaman? He thought he was doing this in secret but while Elisha's physical body remained home he was in spirit watching Gehazi take from Naaman.
While Christ is on the earth, in spirit He will be with us.
And did not Paul even say:
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
If that is your reason for believing in this mess of doctrine, then heck, count me out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
You'd have to get ahold of some Unsearchable Riches magazines available through Concordant Publishing or concordant.org
Here is something: Snatched Away, by Donald G Hayter (http://www.gtft.org/Library/hayter/SnatchedAway.htm - broken link)
I've actually looked into those magazines before (shortly after I discovered their bible). However, I never actually ordered any. Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.
...maybe you don't understand what the definition of that word truly means? It means we cannot go out to the celestials. We must return to earth because that is the original destination of the person we were meeting.
Let's step through every verse where "meet" is used and see if it means to "return to where one came from."
(Mat 8:28) And at His coming to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, two demoniacs meet Him, who were coming out of the tombs, very ferocious, so that no one is strong enough to be passing by through that road."
So does Jesus have to return and remain for ever in the country of the Gergesenes? No.
(Mat 8:34) And lo! the entire city came out to meet with Jesus, and, perceiving Him, they entreat that He may be proceeding from their boundaries."
So is the Lord supposed to go into their city, a city He did not come from? No. They told Him to leave.
(Mat 25:1) Then likened shall be the kingdom of the heavens to ten virgins, who getting their torches, came out to meet the bridegroom."
(Mat 25:6) Now in the middle of the night a clamor occurs: 'Lo! the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
(Luk 14:31) Or what king, going to engage another king in battle, will not, being seated, first plan to see if he is able to meet, with ten thousand, him who is coming against him with twenty thousand?
Does the king have to meet the opposing king in battle and must that opposing king, since he is meeting this king, must he go to the opposers city? No.
(Luk 17:12) And, at His entering into a certain village, ten men, lepers, meet Him, who stand ahead."
Must these ten lepers return with Jesus to a certain village? No. Or must they travel to Bethlehem where Jesus originated His birth? No.
(Luk 22:10) Now He said to them, "Lo! at your entering into the city a man will meet with you, bearing a jar of water. Follow him into the house which he is entering."
Must the man that meets Jesus' disciples go to each village from which each disciple comes from? No.
(Joh 4:51) Now as he is already descending, his slaves meet him, and they report, saying that his boy is living."
(Joh 12:13) got fronds of palms and came out to meet Him. And they clamored, saying, "Hosanna! Blessed is He Who is coming in the name of the Lord!and "The King of Israel!"
Sure, Jesus met them and went into the city of which they met Him. But just because He did it here it does not mean He must go to every city of a person who met Him in his ministry.
(Act 28:15) And thence the brethren, hearing about us, come to meet us as far as Appii Forum and Three Taverns, perceiving whom, Paul, thanking God, took courage."
Did Paul have to go to each town of the people He met? No.
(1Th 4:17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."
The Lord does not meet us ON THE EARTH so He is not bound to have to continue on to the surface of the earth. He came out of light inaccessable and must return.
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I'll admit that I see what you are telling me to be a load of garbage, (I have absolutely no idea how you could reach this conclusion from scripture?) but I'll still look into it.
Well, enjoy the garbage. It's what God gives to the drudges.
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If that is your reason for believing in this mess of doctrine, then heck, count me out.
Sorry you feel that way.
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I've actually looked into those magazines before (shortly after I discovered their bible). However, I never actually ordered any. Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.
O.K.
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