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"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." John 15:!6
Jesus chose people to bear fruit. He's not talking about salvation.
Indeed, there are so many problems with the ETers beliefs.
They think Satan can thwart God's plans.
They think man's "free will" can thwart God's desires.
They think that humans can cause other humans to be lost or saved.
Yet they don't realize God is in control of all of this! If they only realized...
Satan can do only what God allows him to do. God allows Satan a certain amount of latitude in his attempt to prove to God that he can control this world that for the moment he is the ruler of. It is the issue in the angelic conflict.
Satans Domain: Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8
Satan is the ruler of this world: John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
Satan is the prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2
Satan is the father of unbelievers: John 8:44
Satan influences rulers: 1 Chronicles 21:1
Man has free will by God's sovereign decision. And God allows man's free will to operate. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
Satan uses people to deceive the world.
Revelation 12:9 'And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world...
Revelation 20:7 'And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8)and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth.
Satan can do only what God allows him to do. God allows Satan a certain amount of latitude in his attempt to prove to God that he can control this world that for the moment he is the ruler of. It is the issue in the angelic conflict.
Satans Domain: Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8
Satan is the ruler of this world: John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
Satan is the prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2
Satan is the father of unbelievers: John 8:44
Satan influences rulers: 1 Chronicles 21:1
Man has free will by God's sovereign decision. And God allows man's free will to operate. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
Satan uses people to deceive the world.
Revelation 12:9 'And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world...
Revelation 20:7 'And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8)and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth.
Jesus came todestroy the devil's works. What are those works. And how many people are affected by them? What does deceived and blind mean? Is the whole world deceived? Does God blind and unblind people?
I feel like a broken record, too. I really think somebody needs to check the bible on free will.
God fits some vessels for mercy some for destruction (in this life). He bonked saul/paul on the head. He made nebuchadnezzar crazy and then fixed him. He put a savior in Mary (I don't recall her choosing for such a thing to happen). He uses us as he sees fit. He raises kings and pulls them down. He destroys, he fixes. He kills and makes alive again. He opens eyes, he closes them. He hardens hearts, he softens them. He allows abuse and mayhem. He made the destroyer to destroy.
Some chidren are so terribly abused and twisted from a young age that they become alcoholics or addicts and die in their teens on the streets without love (they walk by a street preacher who is Yelling about the torment of hell and jump off a bridge thinking they must have been hated by their creator--they never felt the goodness or presence of God) And God allowed that also. He puts people in the jungle where they will never heAr about Christ, and he puts people in America where they can hear. Did you ask to be born where you were? Did you ask for the parents you got? Did you ask to be raised with the belief system you were given? I would say that we have limited free will at best.
And I would think twice about boasting about you choosing Christ. Christ does the choosing. John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.
The Bible on free will:
1 Tim 2:3 '...God our Savior 4) who desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.'
HOWEVER, all men are not saved...
Matthew 7:8 ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter (destruction) by it. 14) ''For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.''
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides (remains) on him.''
God desires that all men be saved. But all men are not saved. God places the responsibility on man to receive the offer of salvation that God extends to him. This is free will.
John 15:16 ''You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit...''
Jesus was speaking to the 12 disciples that He had chosen to be his disciples and Apostles. This verse has nothing to do with salvation. Compare John 15:16 with Luke 6:13, Matthew 10:2-4 and Mark 3:13-19.
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.''
The gift of salvation is offered to all. It is received by those who place their trust in Christ.
John 5:40 ''And you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.''
However, God does choose people.
Colossians 3:12 'And so, as those who have been chosen of God.'
Quite simply, God in His omniscience knew from eternity past who would place their faith in Christ for salvation. Knowing in advance, He chose those people He knew would believe in Christ.
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As for boasting...
Ephesians 2:8,9 ''For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God, 9) not as a result of works, that no one should boast''
Jesus came todestroy the devil's works. What are those works. And how many people are affected by them? What does deceived and blind mean? Is the whole world deceived? Does God blind and unblind people?
During human history Satan is allowed by God to attempt to rule this world. Satans plan for that purpose is called Cosmos Diabolicus.
If you want to understand the issue then go to my thread at this link...
Quite simply, God in His omniscience knew from eternity past who would place their faith in Christ for salvation. Knowing in advance, He chose those people He knew would believe in Christ.
So then, it would stand to reason that you believe that God in His omniscience knew from eternity past who would not believe; and knowing in advance, he chose to knit together in the wombs of their mothers, those people who He knew would be tortured and burned forever and ever in fire with no chance for escape. Right? Did he, in your opinion, create babies who he knew would ultimately burn for eternity? Yes or No?
So then, it would stand to reason that you believe that God in His omniscience knew from eternity past who would not believe; and knowing in advance, he chose to knit together in the wombs of their mothers, those people who He knew would be tortured and burned forever and ever in fire with no chance for escape. Right? Did he, in your opinion, create babies who he knew would ultimately burn for eternity? Yes or No?
Just as God created the angels knowing that one third of them would rebel against Him, so also He created Adam knowing that Adam would disobey His command to not eat the fruit thus exercising his God given free will. Thereafter God allows everyone who is born to be born knowing that some will believe in Christ for salvation and many will reject Christ as Savior thus ending up in the lake of fire.
God decreed that man would have free will and in order for that free will to be truly free, God has to allow people to be born knowing that they will reject His offer of salvation.
This does not make God the author of sin or evil, and it does not make God a monster. People are fully responsible for their decisions.
Omniscience--all knowing.
1) God the Father is said to be ''perfect in knowledge'': Job 37:16; cf. Matt. 6:8; 10:29-30; Acts 1:24.
2) God the Son (Jesus Christ) knows ''all things'': John 18:4; cf. Matt.9:4; John 2:25.
3) God the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of wisdom and understanding...counsel and... knowledge: Isa 11:2
Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose, 29)For whom He foreknew (God's foreknowledge is that part of His omniscience that pertains to His knowledge of believers), He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren: 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified (at the point of an individuals faith in Christ); and whom He justified, these He also glorified (reference to the still future resurrection).
God decreed that man would have free will and in order for that free will to be truly free, God has to allow people to be born knowing that they will reject His offer of salvation.
This does not make God the author of sin or evil, and it does not make God a monster. People are fully responsible for their decisions.
So then, your answer is yes, God created people knowing He planned to burn them for eternity. I was afraid of that!
God didn't allow people to be born as if they asked to be born and he granted permission. God KNIT THEM TOGETHER in their mothers' wombs. If He was so into free will, He could have said to the soul being created into a human being, "I want to create you, but I know in the end you'll burn forever. You have free will, so I will let you choose. Do you want to be born and be tortured for eternity, or not be born in the first place?" Now that free will would be truly free!
So then, your answer is yes, God created people knowing He planned to burn them for eternity. I was afraid of that!
God didn't allow people to be born as if they asked to be born and he granted permission. God KNIT THEM TOGETHER in their mothers' wombs. If He was so into free will, He could have said to the soul being created into a human being, "I want to create you, but I know in the end you'll burn forever. You have free will, so I will let you choose. Do you want to be born and be tortured for eternity, or not be born in the first place?" Now that free will would be truly free!
God didn't plan to burn anyone. God has done all that He can to keep anyone from going into the lake of fire. Anyone who chooses to reject the means of escape from hell that God has provided through faith in Jesus Christ bears the responsibility for ending up there.
God allowed and decreed that all who are born would be born. He selected them for birth. Once born, each person has the responsibilty of choosing for or against Christ. It's not a difficult concept to understand. God desires all men to be saved but all men are not saved and the reason is because of mans free will. And mans free will is related to the angelic conflict.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-24-2010 at 02:11 AM..
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