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Old 03-24-2010, 09:02 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,166,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes you could say that, but only if you don't realize that God has a good and loving purpose for letting us temporarily experience evil. (Temporarily is the key word here).

Well, why is that inherantly good and loving? What is less loving about a God who is limitless (as people chime) who would have created us without having to experience it in the first place?
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
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Well, spiritual concepts defy logic so I won't stress the use of our brain on this issue - however, either God is lord of all or He isn't.

The spiritual interpretation of death is hard for us to rightly determine - if the wages of sin are death, wasn't Jesus' death enough?

Our concept of time and space are severely limiting our faith that God is not limited by anything, and the fact that His will is accomplished through the ages is way over everyone's head.

The "I'll Fly Away" doctrine is contrary to God's scriptural plan, but that doesn't stop most people from making it their life's focus. What of the Overcomers who inherit all things - the sons of God that creation is longing for? Why is it groaning if it's not going to be delivered from the bondage of corruption?
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
I see what your saying, what I am pointing out is that the nature of that control is what defines what is true, not whether it is easier to look at the alternative.

I find no encouragment in the idea that God is in control and wills my daughter to get raped for her own good. A loving God eh?

Perhaps that is true (I do not believe it is), but lets not pretend that is easy.
No its definitely not easy, especially when it becomes personal. We can look at an isolated and very personal incident like you say above... and ask the tough questions:

Was God in Control?
Did God "allow" it?
Could God have stopped it?
Why didn't God stop it?

And you and I might not like the answers to those questions.

If we look at a more global level, like why did God create a universe which contains evil? Has God's creation run amok, doing things God didn't intend? I would say no, I'm not sure but I'm guessing you would say the same.

I think this creation is the way it is because it HAS to be that way, so we will learn what God wants us to learn. This includes all the ugly and awful situations that happen to people.

Somehow I have faith that God will make a higher good come out of what Hitler did to his millions of victims. I don't understand how, but I have faith He will do it. This higher good will benefit both Hitler and his victims. That is how I understand God to be in control.


But on point with the OP, this is important to understand: No higher good can come out of eternal torment for those who are in the eternal torment. Thus God cannot allow or purpose eternal torment, because all of God's actions are good.
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God loves you, even to the point of letting you put yourself in torment forever! (Yeah that's real love )

Salvation is done completely by God, except for the part that you have to do yourself! (Then its not done completely by God, is it? )

You have to "accept Christ" of your own free will to be saved (Then wouldn't you be able to boast about it? )

God is in control and wants to save all people, except that He allows Satan & man's free will to 'thwart' his desire to save all people (Then He doesn't really want to save all people, does he? )

Humans can cause other humans to be lost forever (Then God is not really in control, is he? )

People choose to go to hell (Oh really? People prefer to torture themselves forever, instead of going into the loving embrace of God? Yeah makes perfect sense... What about those who never heard of hell? Yeah, they choose to go to hell too... )

Satan is deceiving many people and leading them into hell, many more will end up in hell than heaven (then doesn't that make Satan more victorious than God? )

God only "allows" Satan to deceive people (then are you saying God wants people to go into hell? )



THINK. USE YOUR BRAIN. GOD GAVE IT TO YOU FOR A REASON.

Hey Lego,

Let me start off by saying I'm sorry you have had a rough day. I've been having quite a few of those lately myself, so I can sympathize. In regards to your initial post, there are a few misconceptions regarding what ET believers accept, but I would like to focus on one issue that has bugged me for a while. It seems that the dividing point between ET believers and Universalists resides in the question of whether or not someone is able to accept Christ after death. Now, as far as I have read the Bible, the only verse that really seems to make any direct reference to this issue is found in Hebrews 9, which I know you are already aware of.

"Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once and for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and then face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of the many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

My question to you is this: where in Scripture can I find a direct reference that validates the notion of salvation after death? Furthermore, does it coincide with this passage of Scripture? I am actually anxious to know, so let me know whenever you have time. Take care of yourself and I hope you have a better week.
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:12 AM
 
6,174 posts, read 3,604,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Well, why is that inherantly good and loving? What is less loving about a God who is limitless (as people chime) who would have created us without having to experience it in the first place?
The concept of teaching someone how to overcome evil is inherently good and loving - because 1 Cor 13 tells us that love does not delight in evil.

So in order for God to teach us how to overcome evil and not delight in evil, first He must provide/create/allow the evil to exist, so we will experience it, and then learn how to overcome it.

That is the purpose. If God did not have that purpose to show us how to overcome evil, then yes, He would have just created us all in a "final end happy" state.

Its not really a limit on God. For example we could argue about logic. Could God create the universe to be illogical? Could God make 2+2=5? I don't see how He could. But maybe He could. I don't know.

Its really the old question: can God make a rock so big that even He can't lift it?

The answer is NO. Or Maybe.
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:30 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,166,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The concept of teaching someone how to overcome evil is inherently good and loving - because 1 Cor 13 tells us that love does not delight in evil.
I understand the concept, but you may be missing my point.

Quote:

So in order for God to teach us how to overcome evil and not delight in evil, first He must provide/create/allow the evil to exist, so we will experience it, and then learn how to overcome it.
What is loving about a God that could have taught us these things without subjecting us to them or causing us to do them, but did?

Or is there a deeper issue concerning what God cannot do?
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:37 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 947,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So in order for God to teach us how to overcome evil and not delight in evil, first He must provide/create/allow the evil to exist, so we will experience it, and then learn how to overcome it.
I read something that explained it this way: You have to know what dark is to know what light is, you have to know what hot is to know what cold is, you have to know what heavy is to know what light is, you have to know what loud is to know what quiet is, you have to know what steep is to know what flat is, etc. You have to know what hate/evil is to know what love/good is, so letting us temporarily experience evil, lets God help us to understand Him and His love.
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:44 AM
 
6,174 posts, read 3,604,602 times
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Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Hey Lego,

Let me start off by saying I'm sorry you have had a rough day. I've been having quite a few of those lately myself, so I can sympathize. In regards to your initial post, there are a few misconceptions regarding what ET believers accept, but I would like to focus on one issue that has bugged me for a while. It seems that the dividing point between ET believers and Universalists resides in the question of whether or not someone is able to accept Christ after death. Now, as far as I have read the Bible, the only verse that really seems to make any direct reference to this issue is found in Hebrews 9, which I know you are already aware of.

"Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once and for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and then face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of the many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

My question to you is this: where in Scripture can I find a direct reference that validates the notion of salvation after death? Furthermore, does it coincide with this passage of Scripture? I am actually anxious to know, so let me know whenever you have time. Take care of yourself and I hope you have a better week.
Thanks for your concern and kind words Nero, I appreciate it.

Regarding your comments on ET, I would classify these under the OP as more lies of eternal torment (I realize you don't think they are lies, but hey just work with me for a moment):

ETers think that the offer of salvation expires at death
ETers think that warnings of "judgment" and "wrath" are equivalent to "eternal hell"

These are two of the biggest lies to overcome. See, you ask me above to provide a scripture that shows salvation after death, but from my perspective you have it backwards. There simply is no scripture that shows salvation expires after death. But there are many scriptures that show God wants to save all, God will do what He wants, and God's character doesn't change. So I would ask you to show me a scripture that says you CANNOT be saved after death.

In fact most mainstream already believes people can be saved after death. Most people believe babies that die are saved after death. Some also believe that adults who are mentally handicapped are also saved after death. Yet there is no scripture that says that either.

See you are basing your whole view on the fallacy that "judgment" = "eternal condemnation to hell", (using Heb 9:27), when it can be shown that God's judgments actually lead to people learning righteousness (Isa 26:9 for example).

So look at it logically:
- God wants all to be saved
- God is able to achieve what He wants
- God's plan and character DOESN'T change (so He will always want all to be saved)

So then you conclude God doesn't allow people to be saved after death? Even though He wants all to be saved? Even though no scripture says you cannot be saved after death? Is that logical?

"Salvation expiring at death" is another lie of ET my friend.

If you want to see the process, look at 1 Cor 15:22-28, it shows that all are made alive, in Christ (not just "all in christ", but "all, in christ"). Ultimately all enemies are defeated, all authority is put down, no one is reigning forever, and God will be all in all (that's everyone).

Hope this made some sense to you...
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:45 AM
 
6,174 posts, read 3,604,602 times
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I read something that explained it this way: You have to know what dark is to know what light is, you have to know what hot is to know what cold is, you have to know what heavy is to know what light is, you have to know what loud is to know what quiet is, you have to know what steep is to know what flat is, etc. You have to know what hate/evil is to know what love/good is, so letting us temporarily experience evil, lets God help us to understand Him and His love.
Agree.
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:48 AM
 
6,174 posts, read 3,604,602 times
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Hmm, somehow my thread has turned into a discussion on the "problem of evil"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
I understand the concept, but you may be missing my point.



What is loving about a God that could have taught us these things without subjecting us to them or causing us to do them, but did?

Or is there a deeper issue concerning what God cannot do?

"Or is there a deeper issue concerning what God cannot do?"

I think that is the real point. Just like God had to make "2+2=4", because it could not be any other way, He also had to give us this experience of evil to learn goodness, because it could not be any other way.

Notice when I say "it could not be any other way" I mean it could not be any other way to achieve God's purposes. All of this is to achieve God's purposes.

Like BHfT said, you cannot learn what light is without understanding darkness.

Since God wanted us to learn what light is, He first had to show us darkness.
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