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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow So, does that mean that you believe in annihilation but not eternal torture?
I think you reached a new level, even on this forum, of pretending to supply an answer to a simple question. You said that since God allowed people to drown in Noah's days that it means he'll destroy people again. It was a very easy-to-answer and reasonable question that I asked based on your comment. Let me put it another way in light of your new reply.
So, does your new reply mean that you believe in annihilation, or does it mean that you believe in eternal torment, or does it mean that you've finally realized that God will do neither and save the ones he created and sent Jesus to save?
You already know what I believe. I've said it a thousand times. God created man and we must believe that Jesus died and rose again to be saved. If you don't believe you aren't saved and will be in hell forever. This is why I said I believe the Bible. This is what the Word of God teaches. I don't follow the man wrote the Bible so we have to discern what is true or what isn't nonsense. It's nonsense.
I don't follow the man wrote the Bible so we have to discern what is true or what isn't nonsense. It's nonsense.
I agree. I believe that God inspired the Bible, so we have to discern which interpretation is true and which is nonsense. Nonsense is anything that doesn't align with the true nature and character of God.
Wait a second.. HANG ON HOLD UP. As bad As I HATE to say this. But Katjonjj Is absolutley correct. Jesus Christ is not God. God is however in Jesus. That my friend is Scripture. The Angel Came to Mary , Told her that her son is in fact the son of God. It says that in Scripture does it not ? It never once says that Jesus is in fact God rendered in flesh. It says He ( Jesus ) is King of Kings , and Lord of Lords . The High Priest. Never once says or even concludes that he is God. He is God's son is what the scriptures say. Mike you have your facts twisted. This is also from the original translations .. Now , here is the part that you will have trouble with. The delusion of Hell. Hell is not a literal place , and the timeframe is not eternal. The King James old english version would have you believe it is. There is a punishment in the " Afterlife " but it is during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. It will end as God allows you to leave from there to the kingdom. See life is a learning experiance. If you do not learn before your death , you will be taught after it. God has said many times that Every Knee Shall bow , Every Tongue shall confess , that Jesus Christ is Lord. In submission to him , and through his love for us , The father gave him as a sacrifice for our sins. That means all our sins. It also says in the scriptures that no man can come to Jesus without the father drawing him , or selecting him , to do so. It would not be just if the father doesn't select you and you go to hell because of that failure would it ? He says also that his will is for all to be saved. His will be done. Being that said , I leave you with this . With research comes knowledge. With knowledge and the guidance of the Holy Spirit , you see truth. If you cannot let go of the Doctrine you hear repeatedly to see the truth , then you have given yourself the eyes of sleep. You can't see the truth because , you have been so indoctrinated that you refuse to challenge the church and see what is there. Read without the Ideals you are taught. That is when true understanding of the bible begins. On another post I put a series of Chapters from various Biblical sources that prove what I am saying to you is the truth.. If I need to list them again I will repost them later. According to Scripture Itself Mike, Jesus is the Son Of God and Sits at his right hand in heaven. They are seperate Beings of the same Spirit. Just as the Holy spirit is a seperate entity , but still connected to the power of God. Christ tells of this seperation , when he says If I do not Go the Comforter Cannot come. He did not say the comforter was already there , hence a seperation of entities. He prayed in the Garden for God ( his father) to allow the cup to pass from him. Yet God did not allow it to be done. Seperation there also. Now I will probably hear a lot of the " He who has seen me , has seen the Father " comments . I welcome those , because he did not say He who has seen me sees the father. He was talking about his connection to God through his bond ( of father to Child ) most people look like thier parents So He was meaning also physically speaking that he looked like his father. Or insomuch as it could be rendered in Flesh. There is note of seperation in revelations also. It describes Jesus sitting on the right hand of the father. He could not be sitting on the right hand of the father if he indeed were him. Here is another Gem for you . God's Family is not a closed trinity , we will all and are all added to his family . ( Children of God.) Christ was our example , and our sacrifice , but he in a way will also be our brother. It is the truth , and it is scriptural. We are being added to his family as we pass from hither to yon. That stretches the ol brain doesn't it ? Now after you wrap your nugget around that one , here is another mind bender for ya. WE ( all his creation, Mankind etc) will all be saved , for it is his will that we are. Read up on that one too..Put the thought of hell out of your mind. You have just started scratching the surface of the truth to the Word Of God. When he feels the time is righ the will open your eyes of slumber to this. It all starts by leaving the doctrine of the church on the backburner , and asking for God to reveal himself to you . You don't want to be lied to , and you want to know the truth so you can be better prepped to handle what is to come ? Allow yourself to step out of the indoctrination so that God may reveal himself and his truth to you. You will see that it isn't about hell or torment or torture , it is about his love and mercy for all of mankind, and the examples Jesus gave you to live by. You are to be perfect when Christ renders you back to the father after the kingom of 1000 year reigns. Life is about learning to be just what he wants . A perfect being. Dare I say Jesus was the only perfect being before death. In that statement alone , none of us would be worthy before we die , of going to heaven. We will still have learning to do. Once we are raised from the grave is when this learning will occur. Once we have learned. We are given immortality and then rendered back to God.
I believe if Christ Himself came and tap some of them on the shoulders and say: "I AM HE"!! They still wouldn't believe....is this the "hardness of the heart" that we are going to see an increase in, in these last days? May God have mercy!
And that essentially will be the case in the Millennium. Jesus Christ will be physically present on the earth on the throne of David ruling in righteousness, and there will be many who reject Him. And they will have their wish. They will spend eternity apart from the presence of God. But they will find themselves in eternal torment and despair in that place described as the lake of fire. But in rejecting Christ as Savior, God has no choice but to execute the righteous demands of His perfect holiness in pouring out justice upon them.
I agree. I believe that God inspired the Bible, so we have to discern which interpretation is true and which is nonsense. Nonsense is anything that doesn't align with the true nature and character of God.
God has no choice but to execute the righteous demands of His perfect holiness in pouring out justice upon them.
I totally agree. God has no choice because he is holy. He has no choice but to be just to everyone he created. Burning people in a literal lake of fire forever is NOT JUSTICE and only a fool would believe there's anything fair about burning someone forever. Yes, I said fair. Fairness and justice are the same thing.
Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2 Sam 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in ther dwellings, and among them.
Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Prov 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Prov 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Prov 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Prov 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the chldren of men?
Prov 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Prov 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezek 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Ezek 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Ezek 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Ezek 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to their hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Amen!!!
The Scriptures themselves are the proof of hell and solemnly warn the world of what awaits after death for those who reject the way of escape that God has provided for fallen mankind through faith alone in Christ alone.
So you will allow me to show you the words used here and translated as Hell to show that the writers had no concept of the hell you speak of?
"hell" here is SHEOL-underworld (place to which people descend at death) and both good and bad were thought to be there so it can't be the same hell you think it is... also do mountains burn with fire from their foundations? A literal hell described amongst figurative language?
"hell" here is SHEOL-underworld (place to which people descend at death) and both good and bad were thought to be there so it can't be the same hell you think it is...
"hell" here is SHEOL-underworld (place to which people descend at death) and both good and bad were thought to be there so it can't be the same hell you think it is... and obviously they perceived hell as below ground and heaven as above ground...
"hell" here is SHEOL-underworld (place to which people descend at death) and both good and bad were thought to be there so it can't be the same hell you think it is... Also notice that the him is God and that Sheol is naked to him... meaning that Sheol is accessible by God.
These are all Sheol if I am not mistaken... see above.
The "hell" here is Gehenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., an idiom for destruction as befell the criminals who were burned there and even earlier when children were burned in sacrifice to a false god.
The "hell" here is Gehenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., an idiom for destruction as befell the criminals who were burned there and even earlier when children were burned in sacrifice to a false god.
I believe these are all Gehenna as well which is a proper noun and was looked down upon by the people then as we look down on the Nazi concentration camps as true and pure wickedness. Gehenna is a nice peaceful garden now....so that can't be the location of your fiery torture pit either.
"hell" here is Hades which is the grave or unseen (just like Sheol) and all people were thought to "sleep" there. Still no fiery pit of torture here either.
this one is Gehenna...see above.
"hell" here is from Tartaros (a Gr. name for the abode of the damned) and is another proper name for after death made popular by the Greek culture and pagan religions... again not a fiery place of torture but by far the closest to it.
Notice that Jesus has the keys to Hades and so is in control of it... which is then cast into the lake of fire.. so Hades cannot be the fiery torture pit you envision!
So that leaves you will one thing that resembles your version of Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo, and Gehenna.... the lake of fire which is only used in a book written in a symbolic shroud to begin with... further more there are only 3 uses of it in Revelation.. how can something by definition be unseen (Sheol, Hades) be thrown into the lake of fire if the lake of fire is a literal burning pit located somewhere tangible?
The Jews knew full well of the existence of hell. For those who are interested go into this link.
The difference between Hades/Sheol and gehenna/the lake of fire is that Hades is the temporary place of imprisonment for those who die without Christ and the lake of fire is the permanent place of confinement into which the unbeliever will be transferred when he is resurrected out of Hades to stand before the Great White Throne judgment of Christ and ordered by Christ into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-25-2010 at 11:28 PM..
I totally agree. God has no choice because he is holy. He has no choice but to be just to everyone he created. Burning people in a literal lake of fire forever is NOT JUSTICE and only a fool would believe there's anything fair about burning someone forever. Yes, I said fair. Fairness and justice are the same thing.
No. The fool is one who presumes to impose his notions of what God's justice should be on God.
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Jesus Is not GOD
