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Unread 03-25-2010, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,720,393 times
Reputation: 424
Default An Equal Side To Good???

Does the Bible teach a yin/yang concept??? Is there an EQUAL side to good?

On the thread about deception, a poster replied that he believed that there is always an opposite. And the opposite to heaven is hell.

What I am hearing is that there is an EQUAL and OPPOSITE side to everything. If heaven is the most wonderful thing imaginable, then there is a worst imaginable.

What say you?
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Unread 03-25-2010, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,140,532 times
Reputation: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Does the Bible teach a yin/yang concept??? Is there an EQUAL side to good?

On the thread about deception, a poster replied that he believed that there is always an opposite. And the opposite to heaven is hell.

What I am hearing is that there is an EQUAL and OPPOSITE side to everything. If heaven is the most wonderful thing imaginable, then there is a worst imaginable.

What say you?
I say that God is perfect. Therefore he must be neutral. Both Good and Evil canceling each other out. sorta like a base and an acid becoming neutral pH when mixed in equal amounts.

I believe there must be evil so that we can recognize good. But as far as heaven and hell you first have to establish that these are defined correctly. I don't see the pearly gates up in the clouds kind of heaven, nor the fire-filled lake where people are tortured for ever. I see that heaven is a state of being not an afterlife. Same with hell (darkness, spiritually inept existence)... I see hell as a state of being. Therefore in this life we can and do experience both sides, heaven and hell. With the right amount of both we will come to the full knowledge of God.
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Unread 03-25-2010, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 1,436,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I say that God is perfect. Therefore he must be neutral. Both Good and Evil canceling each other out. sorta like a base and an acid becoming neutral pH when mixed in equal amounts.

I believe there must be evil so that we can recognize good. But as far as heaven and hell you first have to establish that these are defined correctly. I don't see the pearly gates up in the clouds kind of heaven, nor the fire-filled lake where people are tortured for ever. I see that heaven is a state of being not an afterlife. Same with hell (darkness, spiritually inept existence)... I see hell as a state of being. Therefore in this life we can and do experience both sides, heaven and hell. With the right amount of both we will come to the full knowledge of God.
This is SO unBiblical. I already posted dozens of verses that talk about a literal heaven, yet you refuse to believe in it.
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Unread 03-25-2010, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,720,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
This is SO unBiblical. I already posted dozens of verses that talk about a literal heaven, yet you refuse to believe in it.
I don't agree with the yin/yang concept.

That being said, please respond to the hell/heaven deal, good/bad, and so on.........

Which side wins in the end.....heaven or hell?
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Unread 03-25-2010, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,140,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
This is SO unBiblical. I already posted dozens of verses that talk about a literal heaven, yet you refuse to believe in it.
I must have missed all those verse... list the posts here and I will look at them again.

Heaven is not a literal place up in the clouds... we are not children anymore with dreams of santa and the tooth fairy, let alone winged beings playing the harp amongst the clouds in heaven...

IMO you have not prove heaven is anymore tangible than hell.... but I will willingly change my view if you can prove it....
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Unread 03-25-2010, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 1,436,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I must have missed all those verse... list the posts here and I will look at them again.

Heaven is not a literal place up in the clouds... we are not children anymore with dreams of santa and the tooth fairy, let alone winged beings playing the harp amongst the clouds in heaven...

IMO you have not prove heaven is anymore tangible than hell.... but I will willingly change my view if you can prove it....
If you don't believe in the Bible, than the verses I post mean nothing to you. They are proof to me because I believe that the Bible is God's Word.


DEU 26:15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your
people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our
forefathers, a land flowing with milk and honey."

PSA 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD is on his heavenly
throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine them.

ISA 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth
is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my
resting place be?

MAT 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for
in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust
do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

18:10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I
tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in
heaven.

MAR 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into
heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

LUK 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in
heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons
who do not need to repent.

20:34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in
marriage.

35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in
the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are
God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would
have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you
to be with me that you also may be where I am.

ACT 7:49 "'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind
of house will you build for me? says the Lord. Or where will my resting
place be?

1TH 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we
will be with the Lord forever.

HEB 10:34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the
confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had
better and lasting possessions.

2PE 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

REV 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the
churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree
of life, which is in the paradise of God.

4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on
them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of
gold on their heads.

7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no
one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing
before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes
and were holding palm branches in their hands.

13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they,
and where did they come from?"

14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come
out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them
white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and
night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent
over them.

16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun
will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.

17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he
will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every
tear from their eyes."

15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and,
standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and
his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by
God

21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from
God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of
God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and
God himself will be with them and be their God.

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or
mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then
he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last
plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of
the Lamb."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and
showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a
very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as
glass.

19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of
precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the
third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,

21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl.
The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and
the Lamb are its temple.

23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the
glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will
bring their splendor into it.

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night
there.

26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is
shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's
book of life.

22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as
crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the
river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its
fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the
nations.

3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb
will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or
the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will
reign for ever and ever.
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Unread 03-25-2010, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,140,532 times
Reputation: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
If you don't believe in the Bible, than the verses I post mean nothing to you. They are proof to me because I believe that the Bible is God's Word.
Yet I do believe in the bible and these verses don't prove a tangible heaven at all... did the writers imagine a city up in the clouds with pearly gates and winged beings? No it seems they did not:

"The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age. The Olam Ha-Ba is another, higher state of being. "
Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Quote:
DEU 26:15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your
people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our
forefathers, a land flowing with milk and honey."
Using reasoning and discernment it is clear that the land did not literally flow with milk and honey so likewise God's holy dwelling place is not literal.. If God is everywere at once he has no dwelling place. The word for heaven here is: hashamayim which means air, sky, astronomy... etc. The writer did not picture what you picture....

Quote:
PSA 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD is on his heavenly
throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine them.

ISA 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth
is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my
resting place be?
So there is a holy temple, a heavenly throne and he sits there watching us all? If earth is his footstool shouldn't we be able to see this dwelling place of his?

Quote:
MAT 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for
in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
here heaven is: ouranos which means air, sky and is the Greek equivalent to hashamayim in the Hebrew... still nothing to indicate an actual tangible place called heaven...

Quote:
6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust
do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

18:10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I
tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in
heaven.

MAR 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into
heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

LUK 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in
heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons
who do not need to repent.

20:34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in
marriage.

35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in
the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are
God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would
have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you
to be with me that you also may be where I am.

ACT 7:49 "'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind
of house will you build for me? says the Lord. Or where will my resting
place be?

1TH 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we
will be with the Lord forever.

HEB 10:34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the
confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had
better and lasting possessions.

2PE 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

REV 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the
churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree
of life, which is in the paradise of God.

4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on
them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of
gold on their heads.

7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no
one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing
before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes
and were holding palm branches in their hands.

13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they,
and where did they come from?"

14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come
out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them
white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and
night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent
over them.

16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun
will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.

17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he
will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every
tear from their eyes."

15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and,
standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and
his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by
God

21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from
God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of
God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and
God himself will be with them and be their God.

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or
mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then
he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last
plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of
the Lamb."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and
showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a
very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as
glass.

19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of
precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the
third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,

21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl.
The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and
the Lamb are its temple.

23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the
glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will
bring their splendor into it.

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night
there.

26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is
shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's
book of life.

22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as
crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the
river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its
fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the
nations.

3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb
will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or
the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will
reign for ever and ever.
So all of this yet not one verse states there is a location that is tangible called heaven.... How do you know this heaven you think is literal is actually literal.. the scripture above doesn't prove a literal place called heaven where people will live after their death.

Can't you admit that in our universe neither heaven nor hell actually and literally exist! Perhaps you could believe that they do exist in another realm such as the spiritual realm of God (who is spirit). But then since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom I would assume there is no need for heaven or hell to be tangible literal places.
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Unread 03-25-2010, 05:53 PM
 
51 posts, read 29,550 times
Reputation: 24
When we would do good; evil is present with us.

Rom 7:21
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.KJV

Mt. Sinai is a presentation of the backside of the Lord. This is the goodness of God.

Jesus is a presentation of the face of the Lord. This is the better part of God.

Eph 2:15
so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man,
NASU

These are some guiding witnesses to the dual quality of our Lord Jesus.

Eojj
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Unread 03-25-2010, 06:08 PM
 
Location: alabama
200 posts, read 141,836 times
Reputation: 55
Sin has no standard of its own. Sin must derive mearsuments from that which is positive or good. One may assume good apart from evil, but evil cannot exist apart from good. By its very nature sin (and evil) must oppose and pervert something its opposite. Every sin is, in reality, a perversion of some good principal...

Sin and evil cannot really manifest themselves as such, but must (to some extent) be disguised as good.

For example, Hitler's stated reason for the systematic slaughter of untold Jews and East Europeans was for the "protection and good" of his own people, Germany.

Evil has no unifing power. It must attach itself to the good. Like a virus.

Evil must struggle against itself...a miser is at odds with a spendthrift...a promiscuous hetrosexual is sickened at the sexual perversions of a homosexual.

But not so with the good, where all its elements and attributes complement and do not contradict each other. Love, grace, truth, wisdom, righteousness, and justice are all the closes of friends.

Thus good has only one enemy, the evil, but any given evil has two enimies, the good, and the conflicting evil.

Two bitter enemies...Adolf Hitler, and Joseph Stalin.

Sin in the bible is not always the same thing as evil.


Willmingtons guide to the bible...somewhat paraphrased.
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Unread 03-25-2010, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,720,393 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm...mabeynot View Post
Sin has no standard of its own. Sin must derive mearsuments from that which is positive or good. One may assume good apart from evil, but evil cannot exist apart from good. By its very nature sin (and evil) must oppose and pervert something its opposite. Every sin is, in reality, a perversion of some good principal...

Sin and evil cannot really manifest themselves as such, but must (to some extent) be disguised as good.

For example, Hitler's stated reason for the systematic slaughter of untold Jews and East Europeans was for the "protection and good" of his own people, Germany.

Evil has no unifing power. It must attach itself to the good. Like a virus.

Evil must struggle against itself...a miser is at odds with a spendthrift...a promiscuous hetrosexual is sickened at the sexual perversions of a homosexual.

But not so with the good, where all its elements and attributes complement and do not contradict each other. Love, grace, truth, wisdom, righteousness, and justice are all the closes of friends.

Thus good has only one enemy, the evil, but any given evil has two enimies, the good, and the conflicting evil.

Two bitter enemies...Adolf Hitler, and Joseph Stalin.

Sin in the bible is not always the same thing as evil.


Willmingtons guide to the bible...somewhat paraphrased.
I would have to agree with you here. You helped me understand a little more than I did about why I don't believe in traditional Christianity's version of hell.
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