Another question for those who believe in Eternal Torment (scripture, evolve, sinned)

[Zero 7]

Originally Posted by shibata

[/i]But you do. You're saying that sin is not man's fault- when sin is only sin if it's culpable.

Worse, you're saying that conversion is too much to expect of you. Conversion is commanded of all, and it is duty of all.

That's the awful thing about universalism.

I think legoman summed it up pretty good on the post above yours...what does what he said mean to you?

The reason no one responds is that most here don't actually believe salvation is completely of God. They believe man has the ultimate veto power in their own fate, thus they can say "it is your own fault if you end up in hell". But then they also could say it is to their own credit that they are saved.

If your responsible in ANY way of your own salvation, then you have the right to brag before God when you get to heaven. Congratulations if you do.

[CantWait2Leave]

Originally Posted by legoman

Sure. He is telling believers that He will reconcile the world in Christ, and is not counting men's sin against them.

Correct. It is a done deed as a result of Christ's work on the cross.

It must be personally appropriated and thus this is where Paul and the Gospel ministry fit in the picture.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave

Correct. It is a done deed as a result of Christ's work on the cross.

Can you quote scripture for "personally appropriated?" I am Baptist and hear "personal savior" all the time, but I've never seen a Bible verse for it. Thanks.

[shibata]

Originally Posted by Zero 7

If your responsible in ANY way of your own salvation, then you have the right to brag before God when you get to heaven.

So what do the saints believe saves them?

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave

Correct. It is a done deed as a result of Christ's work on the cross.

It must be personally appropriated and thus this is where Paul and the Gospel ministry fit in the picture.

Except that there are many who have not had the chance to accept Christ as their saviour -- children -- gentiles before christ, american indians, africans, hindus, chinese, and all those that have been exposed to the hypocricy of rampant in christianity and are turned of the religion of christianity. The same way Jesus was against the religious Jews.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by shibata

[/i]But you do. You're saying that sin is not man's fault- when sin is only sin if it's culpable.

Worse, you're saying that conversion is too much to expect of you. Conversion is commanded of all, and it is duty of all.

That's the awful thing about universalism.

I'm not sure this is really a fair assessment. I do agree with you that man's sins are fully his own doing and that conversion is commanded of all and it is man's duty to receive Christ by faith. But I don't think this speaks to the sinner's ability in the flesh to do so.

A spiritual metaphor of this would be Lazarus coming forth from the grave. Few would think Lazarus had the ability to hear and come forth out of the grave while being dead. But in the power of the Spirit, Lazarus was now able to hear Christ's command to come forth, and with a new spirit he was not only willing but also able to obey Jesus' command.

What I think universalism is trying to say, is that like Lazarus, all will in God's appointed time, come to spiritual life by the Spirit, hear their Saviors voice and come forth, just like Lazarus did.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave

He wrote this letter to the church in Corinth. He is talking to believers.

The NIV translation seems to lose the sense of what is being spoken of. Although Paul is addressing believers (the word "us" in the text), the subjects of reconciliation spoken of in verse 19 are the world ("their" and "them" in the text) as opposed to us, who were previously said to be reconciled in verse 18. Here it is using the NASV:

2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

[CantWait2Leave]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

Can you quote scripture for "personally appropriated?" I am Baptist and hear "personal savior" all the time, but I've never seen a Bible verse for it. Thanks.

You will not find the phrase, “Personal Savior.” You will find references such as Luke 1:47, which say; “My Savior,” and numerous passages that read: “Our Savior,” which are obviously “Personal” references. Such personalized texts include I Corinthians 8:3, “But if any man love God, the same is known of him”, and Luke 10:20 , “. . . but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.” Nothing is as sweet and personal as ones own name.

John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own ship by name, and leadeth them out.”
Luke 15:7-10 which read; “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance . . . Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.” Therefore, though we may not see the exact phrase: “Personal Savior”, without question, all must conclude that Salvation is very personal.

Clearly you have different beliefs than Baptists so why do you call yourself one? Just wondering.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave

You will not find the phrase, “Personal Savior.” You will find references such as Luke 1:47, which say; “My Savior,” and numerous passages that read: “Our Savior,” which are obviously “Personal” references. Such personalized texts include I Corinthians 8:3, “But if any man love God, the same is known of him”, and Luke 10:20 , “. . . but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.” Nothing is as sweet and personal as ones own name.

John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own ship by name, and leadeth them out.”
Luke 15:7-10 which read; “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance . . . Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.” Therefore, though we may not see the exact phrase: “Personal Savior”, without question, all must conclude that Salvation is very personal.

Clearly you have different beliefs than Baptists so why do you call yourself one? Just wondering.

The relationship with the Lord is very personal, that's for sure. I still don't get "personally appropriated."

The reason I call myself a Baptist is because I am one! I'm not sure that will always be the case, depending on how the Lord leads. One thing that sets Baptists apart from some other mainstream denominations is the belief in once-saved-always-saved. I believe that, and I believe that Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross is what saved them. God sent Him into the world, not to condemn it, but that the world through Him might be saved. I believe Jesus' mission was accomplished!

Our pastor rarely talks about hell, but when he preaches a faulty view of God's character, it is upsetting. And, as I posted on another thread, if hell is literal, nothing else matters, so it's ridiculous not to get all those churchy people out of the pews and go warn people that they are on the verge of being tortured for eternity. If hell is literal, there is no reason for a church building. They could just find a meeting place, split up into different parts of the town, and go warn everyone they see. That is ALL that matters if hell is literal.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave

What do you think about this verse in 2 Peter 2:12-13 "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you."

You think these false teachers or "brute beasts" will be reconciled? What does the scripture say?

They were reconciled.. they died in 70AD just as Jesus said they would... they died in the most horrible way... death by Roman capture or starvation within the city, and then thrown into Gehenna (the literal place not the Christian Hell) to be burned with the rest of the dead bodies and garbage.. If you have ever read Josephus' account of what took place in the city at that time, such as a woman eating her own child, then you would see that all that Jesus predicted about them came true...

There is no evidence that anyone is rewarded or punished in an afterlife... however, we can see plainly that EVERYONE is rewarded or punished (what you sow you will reap) in this life. So the compelling evidence is that people get what they deserve in life...

There are some interesting facts here: Dating the New Testament - Destruction of Jerusalem

"With the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in the year 70, the sect of the Pharisees died out as rabbinic Judaism evolved and continued developing the basic tenets of the Pharisees." Pharisee - OrthodoxWiki