Lost Loved Ones in Hell Erased from Memory? (myths, trinity, Orthodox)

[hortysir]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

Murder is a sin, just like any other sin. The only way that you can be forgiven of your sins is by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Moses committed murder, and we know that he went to Heaven, because He was a Godly man.

Can you quote/link that for me?
That's the first I heard that

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

What you are actually saying is that you don't agree with God's definition of what is right and what is wrong.

Then we're all the way back to my original question - why do you want to forget about someone who received something so fair and right and good that they freely chose while knowing and fully understanding all the options? What's the problem? Do YOU not think it's right and good?

[Jerwade]

The Principalities and their subordinate messengers within Princedom inculcated the doctrines of demons (Satan) and Hell in the early views (imaginations) of men, falsely fostering and prospering them. Whereas, Christ denounced these doctrines (traditions) of men within the Spirit of truth, as these ego driven desires are within men; resist them.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

Your scripture reference is proof of what I have said. Rejecting Christ is an unforgivable sin, yet you are insisting that those that reject Christ will be forgiven? That they will not be punished? What nonsense is that?

It must be a reading problem. I never said any such thing. There is no way to reject Christ. He is the only Way to God and He has made that connection for us ALL . . . so we need not fear eternal separation from God. We can reject or not even know about the protection of His Grace (love for us) by a failure to repent or "love God and each other." But that will require that we be subject to God's "refining fire" to remove the dross from our "works" and make us worthy to be with Him in the kingdom. I suspect that will NOT be a pleasant consequence . . . but it will definitely not be eternal torment.

So you believe that God would allow some misleading information to be written by those He "inspired"? You are saying that the following scripture was somehow a mangled interpretation of what God inspired them to write?
And, you have some "spiritual" ability to be able to pick which parts of the Bible are true and which aren't, which apparently you think some of us don't have?

We ALL have the same spiritual ability and the information "written in our hearts" by God. We also have the Holy Spirit within to help us to understand it and the living "mind of Christ" providing the TRUE NATURE of God as the correct CONTEXT for reading and interpreting scripture. We cannot extract the true SPIRITUAL meaning from the carnal wording and misunderstandings if we proceed from the wrong CONTEXT of the true nature of our God.

You can reject all you want, but you not believing Jesus' word is the same as rejecting Him, because Jesus does not lie, and you are accusing Him of doing just that.

Jesus does NOT lie . . . but the carnal interpretations of what He said CAN and DO. The bible is for Spiritual guidance and instruction . . . NOT worldly or carnal.

Yes, but that is just to His children, those that have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. That is not the same as those that reject Jesus - he punishes those.

Those of you who believe you are somehow special and the rest are not have no idea of the magnitude of God's love. There are no special ones . . . just first fruits. The first picked in the harvest are no more special than the last . . . just first. God does not punish. He corrects and chastens.

So now you have elevated yourself as knowing more than God. If God decreed that punishment and you don't think it teaches nor accomplishes anything but torture and vengeance, you must think that God is a merciless God.

There is nothing to accomplish or teach by eternal torture and a God who would punish (not to mention torture and torment) ETERNALLY for what happens in a brief FINITE existence . . . IS merciless.

You can stoop to insult me all you want. It isn't that God is vengeful, it is that God cannot tolerate sin. Those that don't accept Jesus are still in their sin and God cannot dwell with them.

There is nothing in that post that refers to you or insults you. It is a statement of fact about the biblical record.

I'm sorry, but Jesus' spoke of hell, and that is in the New Testament. And that you would stoop to say that the OT is covered by the veil of ignorance is to insult God. May He have mercy on you.

The Hell of ET is never mentioned in the bible. It is a mistranslation of several other words with very different meaning. The veil of ignorance over the OT is scriptural and Jesus came to remove it.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17

But their minds were blinded:(blind minds =ignorance) for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it (heart) shall turn to the Lord (Jesus), the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit (Holy Spirit) and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Disobeying God was no big deal? No wonder you don't believe in ET - you think that rejecting Jesus is not a big deal.

Non sequitur. I never said rejecting Jesus was no big deal. I said our first lesson in the knowledge of good and evil was no big deal . . . it was a necessary first step for our species to learn how to achieve our purpose. God wasn't angry and He didn't punish us. The incident just revealed the sinful part of our nature so we could begin to learn that it is necessary to discriminate between good and evil to evolve a self-control strong enough to be reborn as Spirit after death. It would take many generations and there were many such lessons throughout the childhood of humankind. I use the following metaphor for reading the bible . . . it adds a useful perspective.

Our soul was born in the first hour of the sixth day of the first month of the year Eternal. It was named Humankind and spent its infancy in the Garden of Eden. As a toddler, young Humankind had to be taught some basic lessons in how to become a mature citizen. Humankind began toddledom with his first lesson, expulsion from Eden. He was taught many such lessons, the most important being the Ten Commandments. He attended Moses Elementary School.

Humankind achieved puberty and began his adolescence with the death of Jesus Christ. It was then that his ability to conceive eternal life was established. He also began his high school education. He attended Christ High School.

Now he is nearing the end of his high school years, filled with a need to know more complex concepts of life. He is beginning his late teens, filled with rebellion, rejection of his Father's authority, and firm in his belief in his own individuality and independence. The rebellion will continue until young Humankind makes some effort to understand his Father better. Dad will do the rest.

Well, I'm sorry, I cannot agree with your interpretation of the Bible.
I hope someday you will be able to accept the truth and deal with it.

It is not necessary for us to agree . . . just to "love God and each other." But if you just read the bible with the "mind of Christ" as your filter (context) . . . the primitive misunderstandings can be eliminated.

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

"not be hurt of" implies they experience it but aren't hurt... or is that just me?

To not be hurt by something could also mean that you entirely miss it.

The Second Death will take place, but those that are covered by Jesus's blood don't have to fret about it, they will not be hurt by it.

Not hurt, means exactly the opposite of the following.

hurt (hûrt)
v. hurt, hurt·ing, hurts
v.tr.
1. To cause physical damage or pain to; injure.
2. To cause mental or emotional suffering to; distress.
3. To cause physical damage to; harm: The frost hurt the orange crop.
4. To be detrimental to; hinder or impair:

The frost did not hurt the orange crop would not mean "the orange crop experienced the frost but it didn't hurt them" - it would mean "the orange crop was not hurt by the frost (did not experience the frost). Frost is frost, if you experience frost, you are going to yield the results.


I really don't understand why so many on this thread try to twist the meaning of words to fit their agenda?

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

You have mentioned in your other posts, the character of God and I see that you have confidence in that, which is why you trust that if he decides to burn people for eternity that it must be ok. That's how I believed for 33 years, as did most of the people on this forum who do not believe in eternal torture.

I was able to gather that.

The problem is that you say "the Bible I believe in" but it's your "interpretation of the Bible" that you believe in. You do not have to compromise your belief that the Bible is true, to ask yourself if you are going to FIRST trust your belief in God's perfect character to understand the scriptures, or if you're going to FIRST trust what others have taught you about the Bible to try to understand God's character.

I trust my belief in God's perfect character, which is why I understand the scriptures the way that I do. So, you came to the decision that God does not punish forever on your own, or did you go by what others (that had come to that conclusion already) teach you. Even though we might have some intuition about God, it is only through others, their experiences, their interpretations, that we come to fully know God. Without the Scriptures we could only imagine that there was a God, but we could never fathom his Love (that he would send His Son to die on a cross for us), or His fairness, that he punishes those that disregard his offer of salvation. What makes you think that your interpretation is the right one? I just happen to believe the more orthodox interpretation of the Bible, the accepted and traditional interpretation for many years.

I had it backwards for years, as most people do. We confused questioning God Himself with questioning what we had been taught. Once I knew in my heart that God's character was always good, holy, and just, I studied the Bible with my heart and eyes opened in a whole new way. That's when I realized that the scriptures really don't teach eternal torture. "Hell" doesn't even mean a place where people burn forever. The lake of fire is symbolic of God cleansing the sins away. He is a consuming fire. We are baptized with water and with fire. We will all be salted with fire. You can't completely know Him if you believe He will torture people for eternity, because that is in direct opposition to His character.

Jesus warned us of false teachers. Since you believe that it was God that revealed it to you that there is no ET, and I believe that God has revealed to me that there is, one of us is being misled. And, God doesn't let people burn for eternity, they choose to burn for eternity on their own. He gives everyone a choice, people choose. It wouldn't be in God's character to force people to spend eternity with someone they didn't care about, or wanted to be with.

So, believing that He is going to let those that mocked Jesus, who refused his offer of salvation, who resorted to their own ways and wanted to know nothing about Jesus, who spit on Jesus, and denied that He was the Son of God, go into Heaven along with those that recognized their sinfulness, repented and turned their lives over to Jesus is your interpretation of God's character? I think you had it right, and have it backwards now. I know your interpretation sounds more appealing, because it frees us of responsibility to God, of teaching others about Him, because, in your way, everyone ends up in Heaven anyway.

John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

You left out what came before John 17:3
John 17:1-2
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

"All those you have given him" are believers.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

Even though we might have some intuition about God, it is only through others, their experiences, their interpretations, that we come to fully know God. Without the Scriptures we could only imagine that there was a God, but we could never fathom his Love (that he would send His Son to die on a cross for us), or His fairness, that he punishes those that disregard his offer of salvation.

This is a direct rejection of the belief that God has "written in our hearts" and sent the Holy Spirit to guide us in interpreting what was written there and to use the "mind of Christ" to interpret scripture. Not to rely on teachers or what is "written in ink" under the veil of ignorance.

What makes you think that your interpretation is the right one?

She did not need any teacher. We have God and the Holy Spirit. She went against the false teachers . . . because using her heart . . . the veil of ignorance about God is removed and the truth is revealed in all its glory. We do NOT love a monster, torturing God full of vengeance and hate (which are purely human emotions caused by our weaknesses), Our God has none of those weaknesses.

I just happen to believe the more orthodox interpretation of the Bible, the accepted and traditional interpretation for many years.

The one that rationalizes and excuses away the evil of torture and other atrocities God is accused of in the OT and calls them Good . . . instead of tested against what is "written in our hearts."

Jesus warned us of false teachers. Since you believe that it was God that revealed it to you that there is no ET, and I believe that God has revealed to me that there is, one of us is being misled. And, God doesn't let people burn for eternity, they choose to burn for eternity on their own. He gives everyone a choice, people choose. It wouldn't be in God's character to force people to spend eternity with someone they didn't care about, or wanted to be with.

An absurd argument. No one would choose ET and no loving God would ever impose it to blackmail anyone into loving Him or else. Use what is "written in your heart" to think this through.

So, believing that He is going to let those that mocked Jesus, who refused his offer of salvation, who resorted to their own ways and wanted to know nothing about Jesus, who spit on Jesus, and denied that He was the Son of God, go into Heaven along with those that recognized their sinfulness, repented and turned their lives over to Jesus is your interpretation of God's character?

Does this sound like the concerns of an Almighty God or immature human primitives? "Sticks and stones . . . "

I think you had it right, and have it backwards now. I know your interpretation sounds more appealing, because it frees us of responsibility to God, of teaching others about Him, because, in your way, everyone ends up in Heaven anyway.

This i another lie. It does nothing of the sort. We will reap what we sow. But we will NOT be tortured for eternity. This lie is repeated far too frequently to be a simple mistake. It is deliberately false teaching and identifies the real false teachers, IMO.

You left out what came before John 17:3
John 17:1-2
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

"All those you have given him" are believers.

ALL means ALL . . . there are no "special people" . . . that is another human ego thing. Some will be first fruits . . . that's all . . . but the full harvest will include ALL.

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

I've been a Christian for 38 years. I used to believe exactly like you until the darkness was replaced with the true light.

You may just be a victim of false teaching.

Can you show me one verse that says anything about an offer?

Are you looking for the exact word "offer"? Your group of UR's seem to take a word and hold one hostage over a word in order to prove your point. The word offer may not be in the Bible as such because the Bible wasn't even originally written in English, but that the gospel is an offer of salvation, there is no doubt, it is quite clear.

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)

3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Jesus is the Savior of the World. He asked God to forgive people who did not know what they did wrong, not those who make a wise choice to accept an offer.

Those that were crucifying Him were Jews (God's people.) Jesus was praying that God would forgive them for what they were doing, that God would (as long as they were alive) give them a chance to come to repentance and accept Jesus. Some did. The thief on the cross is an example. Jesus told him that he would be in Paradise with Him (Jesus) that day. Jesus did not say that to the other thief.

He came to seek and save the lost. He said, "It is finished." He will not fail in his mission. He will be victorious when death is defeated.

Death will be defeated that is true, because everyone will live forever, but believers will not be together with "sinners".

The truth is that the Bible teaches that few people will make it to Heaven. Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Going to Heaven -- What does the Bible say?

You are good at parroting the talking points that you've been taught, but you are not listening to the Holy Spirit within.

It seems a little arrogant for someone to say that they are listening to the Holy Spirit, but someone else is not.

The sin of pride is the sin of sins. It was this sin, we're told, which transformed Lucifer, an anointed cherub of God, the very "seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty," into Satan, the devil, the father of lies, the one for whom Hell itself was created. We're warned to guard our hearts against pride lest we too "fall into the same condemnation as the devil."
Sin Of Pride

I asked God myself what I was supposed to do to help people avoid hell. I was desperate to know what to do and I cried out to Him. Pretty soon, I began to feel in my heart that God would not torture people in fire forever. I asked God to forgive me of that thinking, and I looked up scriptures to confirm my believe in hell, but that's when God revealed the truth to me through the scriptures.

You have interpreted the Bible the way you want to, to ease your sorrow in knowing that some will end up in Hell. It is a painful thought, but they have chosen that for themselves. You cannot save people. Jesus is the only One that can save. All you can do is lead them to Christ. They have to make the choice. The scriptures are very clear, so your interpretation must be the one that is wrong. What do you think is meant by this verse?

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

The "traditions of men" have been teaching a lie about God's character.

The lie is in saying that God is a liar when he mentioned "death" to those who rejected His son, because in the end He will forgive them and let them come into Heaven with the Saints. What do you think "wrath" stands for in the following scripture?

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 5:8,9
8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Maybe God has allowed this to find out who will even bother to ask Him who He is, and who will truly seek Him with all their heart. I did, and so have many other Christians and we are amazed at the awesome reality of who God really is! The gospel really is "good news."

You are right about that. The Gospel is "good news", but reality is that many will reject it.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Rejoicer in black - BHFT in red

So, you came to the decision that God does not punish forever on your own, or did you go by what others (that had come to that conclusion already) teach you.

What makes you think that your interpretation is the right one?

I had never heard of Christian Universalism or anything similar. Before I came to the full realization that hell was not a literal lake of fire, I had it pressing upon my heart for several weeks. I felt guilty about thinking these thoughts, so I prayed and asked God to forgive me, and to strengthen my faith. I started looking up verses about hell and fire on the internet to reinforce my beliefs, and that's when I found out the real meanings of the word translated "hell," and found out what fire represents all throughout the bible. Here's more about how I came to know God's true character. It's post #49: http://www.citydata.com/forum/christianity/942868-universalists-please-explain-why-you-believe-5.html

And, God doesn't let people burn for eternity, they choose to burn for eternity on their own. He gives everyone a choice, people choose. It wouldn't be in God's character to force people to spend eternity with someone they didn't care about, or wanted to be with.

Do you really believe anyone would "choose" to burn for eternity? That's impossible. No one would choose that. If someone doesn't believe in Jesus, it's because they are ignorant, or haven't had the right circumstances, or aren't getting the true message of His love, or for many other reasons. But, just because someone can't or won't believe, certainly doesn't mean they choose to burn forever.

Really think about your statement that it wouldn't be in God's character to force people to spend eternity with someone they didn't care about, or wanted to be with. That is just like saying it wouldn't be in a good father's character to force his child to spend the day with him, and so instead, he let's them choose to go play in a swamp full of alligators, or a better comparison, a fire. It makes no sense, Rejoicer. (And in case the point is made that not all are his children, substitute uncle or neighbor or any good person in that analogy.)

So, believing that He is going to let those that mocked Jesus, who refused his offer of salvation, who resorted to their own ways and wanted to know nothing about Jesus, who spit on Jesus, and denied that He was the Son of God, go into Heaven along with those that recognized their sinfulness, repented and turned their lives over to Jesus is your interpretation of God's character? I think you had it right, and have it backwards now. I know your interpretation sounds more appealing, because it frees us of responsibility to God, of teaching others about Him, because, in your way, everyone ends up in Heaven anyway.

Jesus asked God to forgive the very ones who murdered Him. Do you believe God will refuse to answer the prayer His Son prayed while hanging on the cross, while dying for the sins of the world? Yes, I do believe He will eventually save all sinners, and that is not just because of His character, but because it was all part of His creation plan.

He wants a relationship with each and every person he created and loves. All creation was made "by Him and for Him." He will seek out and find, or wait patiently for, the prodigal son, the little lost lamb, the sick lepers, the religious Pharisees, all of them, until they come to love and worship Him. "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." He will keep refining, and working on someone until they finally come to know Him. (Eternal life is to know Him.) Believers know Him now, some will not know Him until He refines them in the lake of fire, corrects them, and they are reconciled to Him.

Worrying about my responsibility to God, to help Him save others, is what got me where I am. You can read about it in the link I provided above.

The part about "ends up in heaven anyway" is a big issue in itself and I don't have time to go into it right now, but the bottom line is "it's not about you/us." It's not about what we deserve. It's about what God deserves. He deserves the praise and worship of all His creation, and He will get what He deserves when he conquers death and the grave and Christ is victorious.

You left out what came before John 17:3
John 17:1-2
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

"All those you have given him" are believers.[/quote]
John 13:
3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by hortysir

Can you quote/link that for me?
That's the first I heard that

Exodus 2:11-12

11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

God chose Moses to lead His people (the Jews) out of slavery in Egypt.
Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible.
God entrusted Moses with the 10 Commandments.
When Moses died, God buried him.


Deuteronomy 34:
34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.