Lost Loved Ones in Hell Erased from Memory? (Baptist, sunday, service)

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

I had never heard of Christian Universalism or anything similar. Before I came to the full realization that hell was not a literal lake of fire, I had it pressing upon my heart for several weeks. I felt guilty about thinking these thoughts, so I prayed and asked God to forgive me, and to strengthen my faith. I started looking up verses about hell and fire on the internet to reinforce my beliefs, and that's when I found out the real meanings of the word translated "hell," and found out what fire represents all throughout the bible. Here's more about how I came to know God's true character. It's post #49: [/color]http://www.citydata.com/forum/christianity/942868-universalists-please-explain-why-you-believe-5.html

I don't understand why you (as a Christian) would have been sorrowing over those that reject Christ and end up in Hell. There is no scripture in the Bible that talks about us being concerned for those that have passed rejecting Christ. The reason you felt guilty is because those are not the thoughts that God would have us dwelling upon.
Phil 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
And, I was not able to access your link. It just leads to a Local Weather - but thanks for the effort. I'm not really interested in learning more about your religion, as I know already I would not be swayed into believing like that.

Do you really believe anyone would "choose" to burn for eternity? That's impossible. No one would choose that.

What do you mean people do not choose it. Everyday people are being warned about rejecting Jesus. When people hear the Gospel, they are told about the consequences of rejecting Him. If they don't understand that, it is because they are hardhearted, not because they are ignorant.

If someone doesn't believe in Jesus, it's because they are ignorant, or haven't had the right circumstances, or aren't getting the true message of His love, or for many other reasons. But, just because someone can't or won't believe, certainly doesn't mean they choose to burn forever.

If they don't believe in Jesus, they certainly don't believe in Hell. If they believed, of course they wouldn't choose it, but they choose it because they don't believe. And, you and your religion don't make the rules, God does.

Really think about your statement that it wouldn't be in God's character to force people to spend eternity with someone they didn't care about, or wanted to be with. That is just like saying it wouldn't be in a good father's character to force his child to spend the day with him, and so instead, he let's them choose to go play in a swamp full of alligators, or a better comparison, a fire. It makes no sense, Rejoicer.

Don't compare adults to children. People that accept Jesus are at the age of understanding. Children are exempt until they reach that age. And, God has given His only Son to die on the cross for us, those that reject the gift of salvation are being disobedient to God. A loving father would not be a good father if he didn't admonish his child for disobedience. Of course no father would let his child go play in a swamp full of alligators, or a fire, but we are not made to make that kind of ultimatum for our children for not wanting to spend time with us. God isn't keeping them from heaven because they didn't want to spend time with Him, but rather because they rejected His Son. It would be like me inviting you to come to my home, and you were to tell me, I will come to your home, but you must get rid of your husband because I don't like him. My invitation would quickly be retracted.

Jesus asked God to forgive the very ones who murdered Him. Do you believe God will refuse to answer the prayer His Son prayed while hanging on the cross, while dying for the sins of the world? Yes, I do believe He will eventually save all sinners, and that is not just because of His character, but because it was all part of His creation plan.

I already answered this statement. Jesus was asking God to forgive them for what they were doing. That doesn't mean that Jesus was going to ignore God's decree, that no one comes to Him except through Jesus. Even those that were being forgiven for crucifying Jesus, would have to accept and believe that Jesus was the Son of God in order to enter Heaven.

He wants a relationship with each and every person he created and loves. All creation was made "by Him and for Him." He will seek out and find, or wait patiently for, the prodigal son, the little lost lamb, the sick lepers, the religious Pharisees, all of them, until they come to love and worship Him. "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." He will keep refining, and working on someone until they finally come to know Him. (Eternal life is to know Him.) Believers know Him now, some will not know Him until He refines them in the lake of fire, corrects them, and they are reconciled to Him.

Here is where our beliefs go in opposite directions. There is really no sense in beating a dead horse. You will believe what you believe, and I will continue to believe what I believe.

Worrying about my responsibility to God, to help Him save others, is what got me where I am. You can read about it in the link I provided above.

But according to your belief, no one needs saving, because everyone ends up in Heaven.

The part about "ends up in heaven anyway" is a big issue in itself and I don't have time to go into it right now, but the bottom line is "it's not about you/us."

I know, it's about Jesus. Jesus coming to earth, dying on a cross, being able to come back to life and ascend into Heaven is a big deal. People that poohpooh it are committing a grievous sin.

It's not about what we deserve. It's about what God deserves. He deserves the praise and worship of all His creation, and He will get what He deserves when he conquers death and the grave and Christ is victorious.

Yes He does, but since He doesn't get it, you don't get a second chance once you are faced with reality. If that was the case, there wouldn't be a need for "faith". Faith is very important and mentioned many times in the Bible.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Of course when everyone sees God they will believe, but it will be too late.

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

[font=Arial]Do your homework and be sure of the meaning of words, then, proclaim the power of God’s Word with humility.

I have, it is those that believe that everyone will end up in Heaven when the end comes that are most certainly not being humble.

I really don't have time nor the inclination to continue a debate with disingenuous people, who claim that the Word of God is nothing more but a misrepresentation by the men He inspired to write it.

I may not understand all of God's ways, but I don't believe you or any from your group do, either, what I do know is that the Bible is very clear about the consequences of rejecting His gift of salvation - Jesus, and your feel good religion does nothing for me.

[Rejoicer]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

We are all just participants here on C-D. I don't know any of them nor they me.1 John 2:27 (King James Version)

I didn't mean those that are on this forum, I meant those of your religion. You do have a church, don't you?

27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17

You need to find out why John (not Jesus) said what he said.

We Don't Need Teachers – We Have Jesus

While I was listening to a Christian radio talk show, a man called in claiming he didn't need anyone to teach him the things of God. He went on to say that Jesus told us the Holy Spirit would teach us everything we need to know. The talk show host did a good job at refuting the caller's assertion, but he missed one major point.

First of all, Jesus didn't say any such thing. Granted, in John 16:13 He did say the Holy Spirit would "lead us into all truth", but He never said that we don't need human teachers. It was John who actually said "something" like that. 1 John 2:27 says, "as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, and that anointing is real, not counterfeit …" This is the Scripture the caller attempted to explain. Like many Christians today, the caller didn't know his Bible. He didn't know where the quote was found, who made the statement, and how to understand the quote. Is John really saying that we don't need human teachers?

Here's where a little education in history is important. John wrote these words around 80 to 90 AD. At that time in Ephesus where John lived, there was a false teacher named Cerinthus who taught that Jesus' biological parents were both Mary and Joseph. He did not believe in the virgin birth. He taught that the Holy Spirit came into Jesus at His baptism and then left Him some time prior to the cross. Cerinthus did not believe in the Deity of Christ. He did not believe that Jesus was God in human form from conception. To refute this counterfeit teaching, John wrote his first letter. If you read his letter with this understanding, you'll notice many allusions to the fact that Jesus was God in a human body. Most of us miss these allusions because they don't know the history, and why John wrote the letter. I'd suggest you read first John again with this in mind. It may shed a whole new light on the letter.

Because of Cerinthus' counterfeit teaching John tells his readers that they have an anointing of the Spirit within them which is not counterfeit, as was Cerinthus' teaching. That anointing should teach his readers what is right and what is wrong. The context of John's statement, and the history behind his statement, tells us that John is simply saying not to believe what Cerinthus is teaching. The anointing of the Spirit should tell you that what Cerinthus is teaching is counterfeit. John's statement has nothing to do with the false notion that we don't need well balanced, educated, Godly teachers to help us along in the faith. If he was saying we didn't need such teachers, why was he writing these words of instruction in the first place?

It amazes me that every so often someone comes up with this illogical idea that there is no need for teachers in the Body of Christ. Paul taught. Peter taught. James taught. Philip taught. Teachers are one of the four gifts of Christ found in Ephesians 4:11. It's listed as a function in the Body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12:28. The list could go on. Teachers are important, both to teach Biblical truth, and also to refute men like Cerinthus, and we do have some Cerinthus' hanging around the church these days.
About Jesus*** Steve Sweetman

But their minds were blinded:(blind mind = ignorance) for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord,(Jesus) the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

In this scripture, Paul was talking about the Jews. It is not talking about us today.

UNTIL THIS DAY
Paul says that "their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away..." "Until this day" does not mean that Jews are blinded until our day. It is important to take into account the time and place that Paul wrote this Epistle. When Paul says, "until this day," it should be obvious that he was referring to his own day, not ours. That day was sometime between the day of Pentecost, and A.D.70.
Israel No Longer Blinded

2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
We have both made the same choice . . . Jesus the Christ . . . I am not concerned. My "love of God and each of us" is pure and uncorrupted by fear of ET or hate or vengeance or jealousy or ANY of the negative human emotions that can take a toll on our Spirit. God Bless, brother.

It appears to me that you don't have much use for the Old Testament, and that is of concern, since the entire Bible is the Word of God. We have both made the same choice, Jesus, but it seems that you don't think rejecting his gift (dying on the cross to pay for our sins) has enough weight to keep those that reject it from experiencing the wrath of God.

[allenk893]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

I have, it is those that believe that everyone will end up in Heaven when the end comes that are most certainly not being humble.

I really don't have time nor the inclination to continue a debate with disingenuous people, who claim that the Word of God is nothing more but a misrepresentation by the men He inspired to write it.

I may not understand all of God's ways, but I don't believe you or any from your group do, either, what I do know is that the Bible is very clear about the consequences of rejecting His gift of salvation - Jesus, and your feel good religion does nothing for me.

Lol wow. Your so obvious right now. What you fear is the consequence for rejecting the salvation. Hell. Which is why most reject Christianity and the Bible anyway. It all goes back to hell. No one wants to go there. No one want to be responsible for their actions either. So they shake it off as a lie and false to make life guiltless for them so they can freely keep sinning. I think it's stupid. Denial has never helped anyone. And it's not gonna help you either. Since you already read the bible, try going to church and hear the word. Go with an open mind. You'll learn some things.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

It appears to me that you don't have much use for the Old Testament, and that is of concern, since the entire Bible is the Word of God.

Jesus is the living Word of God (or do you think He is dead?) The OT was necessary to establish the expectation of Jesus and predict the way His life and death would occur and the impact He would have for millennia. Jesus fulfilled all the expectations of His day and for every day since for 2000+ years. That is what fulfilling the OT means and that is what validates Christianity. The veil of ignorance that blinded our ancestors to God's TRUE NATURE from the misinterpretations of the OT was lifted by Jesus and His example and teaching. It has no further role in understanding God . . . only righteousness and providing hope . . . Jesus is the TRUE NATURE of God . . . not the heinous misunderstandings of the OT. The prophesies being fulfilled for 2000+ years despite the errors in the OT are sufficient validation.

All those heinous things attributed to God in the OT were no part of God . . . they were evil and only humans do evil. Satan's biggest weapon is human ignorance and convincing humans that to be ignorant is what God wants and prefers. Satan has convinced the ignorant that fear of God is what God wants because it eliminates any true love of God and each other. The primitive motivation of fear of wrath and punishment . . . instead of God's loving concern and desire for us to avoid the natural consequences of our failures hinders our ability to mature spiritually. These heinous beliefs in scripture are proof positive that Satan is alive and well in the world and has been since the death of Jesus. Jesus came to do away with such primitive impressions of God. I weep for those who will probably hear . . ."Depart from me . . ." when they were only trying to follow God by exalting ignorance as a virtue.

We have both made the same choice, Jesus, but it seems that you don't think rejecting his gift (dying on the cross to pay for our sins) has enough weight to keep those that reject it from experiencing the wrath of God.

God will ensure that we reap what we sow . . . ONLY because we would not have the proper "state of mind" to be adult citizens of heaven. But there is no such thing as ET or Annihilation.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Rejoicer in black, BHFT in red

I don't understand why you (as a Christian) would have been sorrowing over those that reject Christ and end up in Hell. There is no scripture in the Bible that talks about us being concerned for those that have passed rejecting Christ. The reason you felt guilty is because those are not the thoughts that God would have us dwelling upon.

I don't know you as a person, but I have to say that other than something another person posted tonight, that's about the most hard-hearted comment I've read on this forum. I would be sad if any living creature had to be tortured for eternity, so I certainly would care about a human being. What you said here is just very, very sad.

P.S. I saw your other post, and no Christian Universalism is not a church. There is no building anywhere. We are people from all walks of life and denominations, or no denomination, who have been shown the truth of God's character by the Holy Spirit. I'm a Baptist.

Phil 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

So either:
This verse says in essence, "DO NOT THINK OF HELL." If one follows this verse, no one can ever be warned about hell because no one will ever think about it. Pretty cruel God who would orchestrate a plan to burn people consciously for eternity and ask the ones who know about it not to think about it.

Or:
This verse doesn't mean, "DO NOT THINK OF HELL," because it's true, and noble, right, pure, lovely, and admirable.

Or:
It has nothing to do with hell because the lake of fire is symbolic, and it's ok to think about it anyway because it's going to have a lovely and admirable outcome when God punishes, corrects, and redeems.

Which meaning do you think it is?

What do you mean people do not choose it. Everyday people are being warned about rejecting Jesus. When people hear the Gospel, they are told about the consequences of rejecting Him. If they don't understand that, it is because they are hardhearted, not because they are ignorant.


If they don't believe in Jesus, they certainly don't believe in Hell. If they believed, of course they wouldn't choose it, but they choose it because they don't believe. And, you and your religion don't make the rules, God does.

Paul said he was shown mercy BECAUSE OF his ignorance and unbelief. Do you believe Paul, or do you think he was lying?

Don't compare adults to children. People that accept Jesus are at the age of understanding. Children are exempt until they reach that age.

Nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of an age of accountability whatsoever. But, if this is true, it would be the "great loophole" to salvation. Abortion and child murder would be a way to assure your child's salvation if you were afraid to risk them going to hell. They could always be forgiven afterwards. Which is more cruel? Never letting your child live, or letting them live for a short time on earth, only to die and burn in fire forever?

And, God has given His only Son to die on the cross for us, those that reject the gift of salvation are being disobedient to God. A loving father would not be a good father if he didn't admonish his child for disobedience. Of course no father would let his child go play in a swamp full of alligators, or a fire, but we are not made to make that kind of ultimatum for our children for not wanting to spend time with us. God isn't keeping them from heaven because they didn't want to spend time with Him, but rather because they rejected His Son. It would be like me inviting you to come to my home, and you were to tell me, I will come to your home, but you must get rid of your husband because I don't like him. My invitation would quickly be retracted.

Grace and faith are gifts of God, but nowhere in the Bible does it say people decide to accept or reject the gift.

I already answered this statement. Jesus was asking God to forgive them for what they were doing. That doesn't mean that Jesus was going to ignore God's decree, that no one comes to Him except through Jesus. Even those that were being forgiven for crucifying Jesus, would have to accept and believe that Jesus was the Son of God in order to enter Heaven.

Then you believe that "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much," but Jesus couldn't even get His prayer answered while hanging on the cross while fulfilling His Father's purpose for Him to be the Savior of the World.

Here is where our beliefs go in opposite directions. There is really no sense in beating a dead horse. You will believe what you believe, and I will continue to believe what I believe.

OK. I just hope you've asked God why He plans to torture people. He doesn't mind us asking Him questions, and if we want nothing but the truth, and open our hearts, He'll answer them for us.

But according to your belief, no one needs saving, because everyone ends up in Heaven.

You are looking at this from a fleshly standpoint, probably because you know people who you think deserve hell, and obviously you don't care according to your first paragraph. God sees and loves everyone who he created as he knit them together in their mother's wombs.

I know, it's about Jesus. Jesus coming to earth, dying on a cross, being able to come back to life and ascend into Heaven is a big deal. People that poohpooh it are committing a grievous sin.

Agreed! And anyone who waters down the power of the resurrection is in ignorance and unbelief.

Yes He does, but since He doesn't get it, you don't get a second chance once you are faced with reality. If that was the case, there wouldn't be a need for "faith". Faith is very important and mentioned many times in the Bible.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Of course when everyone sees God they will believe, but it will be too late.

Then you have to believe that Thomas is burning in hell at this very moment. He's the one Jesus said that to.

Paul is in hell, too, according to your belief because he absolutely had no faith at all until he was face to face with God.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Rejoicer

I didn't mean those that are on this forum, I meant those of your religion. You do have a church, don't you?

No. There is no church for Christian Universalism - no building at all. We are a growing group of believers who have typically been Christians for many years (usually decades) before being shown the truth of God's character by the Holy Spirit. I'm Baptist.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

There is no church for Christian Universalism.

Actually, there sort of is. It's called Mormonism. (Shhhh! Don't tell anyone!) Biggest Heaven, littlest Hell of any Christian denomination.

I'm Baptist.

I'm surprised! Would you say you are among a small minority of Baptists who believe as you do? I have always been under the impression that Baptists do not believe in UR. (I agree with you that universalists come from many different denominations and that not all members of a single denomination may believe the same way. It's just that I've never met a Baptist universalist before. )

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I'm surprised! Would you say you are among a small minority of Baptists who believe as you do? I have always been under the impression that Baptists do not believe in UR. (I agree with you that universalists come from many different denominations and that not all members of a single denomination may believe the same way. It's just that I've never met a Baptist universalist before. )

Definitely. I only know of a few. Since there isn't a church for Christian Universalists, I go to the Baptist church because at least it teaches once-saved-always-saved. Also, I've been a Christian for 30ish years, and I've only believed in UR for 5.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Actually, there sort of is. It's called Mormonism. (Shhhh! Don't tell anyone!) Biggest Heaven, littlest Hell of any Christian denomination.

So, what do Mormons teach about Jesus, his death on the cross, what it means to us, etc.? And why the book from Joseph Smith? It is equivalent to, or maybe even more revered than the Bible? Thanks.