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Old 04-05-2010, 11:35 AM
 
2,250 posts, read 2,644,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Sin of ignorance is not sin until the Holy Spirit reveals to each one that whatever is in their own lives they are doing or practicing in ignorance and one does not realize they are sinning against our Lord.

There was a time in the beginning of my walk with the Lord, He was cleansing my life from the old to the new creation in Him.

Well, every year we (hb & I) would go and get a permit to cut our Christmas tree. While we were doing this we would get three trees. One for us, and two more for our parents. Didn't think anything about it, it was what we did every year.
UNTIL....As a new believer the Lord was doing His work in me and one year when we were cutting our three trees I felt uncomfortable about what we were doing...... and really didn't understand why all of a sudden after all these years I felt this was wrong.

Well we got home and I was in our kitchen preparing dinner talking to the Lord in my heart, why was I feeling uncomfortable about that day.......
Then the Lord showed me that His Holy Spirit was convicting me in that we were buying a permit for one tree and getting three.....

Ah, I saw this was actually stealing, stealing the other two....... I asked the Lord to forgive me and never have we done that again. Now I see this as sin of ignorance, something we practice and yet do not understand that it is sinning against the Lord. Why, because it was something I never felt was wrong as an unbeliever..... everyone did it, not a consciousness of it being sin... till the Lord was creating in me to die to sin in my life and live in His righteousness.

Now, if after learning from the Lord as a new believer that this was stealing and yet did it again, compromising, thinking no be deal..... everyone is doing it, regardless of what the Lord was teaching me in my new life in Him, that would be sinning willfully against the Lord. Because through my ignorance He was teaching and cleansing me from the things in my life when I was a unbeliever that I still was practicing in my new life in Him, a believer, and not aware of them being sin or sinning against Him.


Blessings......
This is a good example of what is ignorant sin and what is willful sin. To me, this experience brings the scripture of 1 John 1:7 to fruition.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Now, as believers, and if possible, are we to go back and restore those things that we didn't pay for?

Ezekiel 33
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Sowing the Word,
scgraham
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Old 04-05-2010, 11:36 AM
 
12,899 posts, read 6,974,942 times
Reputation: 2391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Ah-ha!! Now this is a very good example of sin of ignorance and then if you had continued after being convicted it would have been WILLFUL sin!! Thanks for sharing that LC.....but I'm still trying to reconcile how in the world some people think, if you continued chopping down 3 trees, how that is going to send you to hell and you can never come back from it. What if you were to die still chopping down 3 trees? This is the question I want answered by everyone.....what would be your fate if you continued on in the sin of stealing 2 trees even after you were convicted of it without repenting, and died in that sin? I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone about that.

If you were a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ you would go to heaven. It is simply impossible to lose your salvation no matter what sin you commit because Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for that sin and God does not condemn you for a sin that has already been paid for. That solves the sin problem. Jesus was our substitute.

But there's another problem. The fact that all sin has been judged at the Cross takes us out of the red-the debit column, but it does not put us in the black-the credit column. There is still the problem of man's relative righteousness. God is perfect. His righteousness is perfect. Man's imperfect relative righteousness has no compatibility with God's perfect and absolute righteousness. Therefore, at the moment a person believes in Christ, God the Father imputes His very own perfect righteousness as well as His eternal life to that person. And that puts the believer in the black-on the credit side of the ledger. And for that reason God sees only His righteousness in the believer. That is why the believer has a perfect standing before God. That is why the believer is POSITIONALLY perfect.

Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.'

To be sanctified (Acts 26:18) means to be set apart unto God. This takes place at the moment of salvation through faith in Christ. At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit places you into union with Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13;Gal 3:26-28; Eph. 4:5). By being placed into union with Christ, the believer shares the righteousness of Christ, His eternal life, His destiny, His heirship, His sonship.

This is why the believer is a saint even while still a sinner. No matter what sins you commit as a believer, God sees only His perfect righteousness in you. You still come under divine discipline in time for sin, but your eternal salvation is not an issue. The disobedient believer is simply disciplined as a son. Disobedience is handled as a family matter as per Prov. 3:11-12; Heb. 12:5-13; and Rev. 3:19-21.

Positional Sanctification occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

Experiential Sanctification occurs at the point of the believer growing up spiritually to the point of maturity in his spiritual life.

Ultimate Sanctification occurs at the point of the resurrection of the body.

For anyone who's interested, here's a link which addresses sanctification.

Sermons Bible Studies Scripture Index

Even though the church-age believer is a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), he still retains the old sin nature in the cell structure of his body. The sin nature was crucified with Christ on the Cross and it has lost its power, but the believer can still be tempted by it and by an act of his own volition, give into the temptation and enter into a state of carnality in which the Holy Spirit is said to be grieved (Eph. 4:30).

And with that in mind, here's another link...

NEW CREATION IN CHRIST


With regard to the commission of a single sin, whether you know it's a sin or not, you wanted to do it and you did it. The solution to having commited a sin is this...

1 John 1:9 If we acknowledge our sins (our known sins) He is faithful (He always forgives the sin) and just (on the basis of the fact that the sin was already judged on the Cross) to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (our unknown sins and sins that we don't remember having committed because we don't keep a short account.)



Willful sinning is characterized by a lifestyle of sinning. The believer doing what he wants to do and if God doesn't like it, then that's too bad. And again, this believer simply comes under divine discipline even to the point of the sin unto death at the extreme, which simply means that the Lord takes the believer out of this life under maximum divine discipline and takes him home in a state of disgrace. No rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, but still saved.

Last edited by Mike555; 04-05-2010 at 11:45 AM..
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:01 PM
 
2,250 posts, read 2,644,128 times
Reputation: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Ah-ha!! Now this is a very good example of sin of ignorance and then if you had continued after being convicted it would have been WILLFUL sin!! Thanks for sharing that LC.....but I'm still trying to reconcile how in the world some people think, if you continued chopping down 3 trees, how that is going to send you to hell and you can never come back from it. What if you were to die still chopping down 3 trees? This is the question I want answered by everyone.....what would be your fate if you continued on in the sin of stealing 2 trees even after you were convicted of it without repenting, and died in that sin? I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone about that.
Why would a truly born again child of God continue to cut down trees that he/she knows is willful sin? That's what Adam & Eve did, they willfully went against God. What happened to Ananias and Sapphira?

Acts 5
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it, at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

This is willful sin!
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Old 04-05-2010, 01:52 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,361,031 times
Reputation: 58122
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you were a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ you would go to heaven. It is simply impossible to lose your salvation no matter what sin you commit because Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for that sin and God does not condemn you for a sin that has already been paid for. That solves the sin problem. Jesus was our substitute.
This is the way I see it also. It is impossible to lose your salvation and it's just a darn shame for anyone to say otherwise. Jesus would be very displeased.

Quote:
But there's another problem. The fact that all sin has been judged at the Cross takes us out of the red-the debit column, but it does not put us in the black-the credit column. There is still the problem of man's relative righteousness. God is perfect. His righteousness is perfect. Man's imperfect relative righteousness has no compatibility with God's perfect and absolute righteousness. Therefore, at the moment a person believes in Christ, God the Father imputes His very own perfect righteousness as well as His eternal life to that person. And that puts the believer in the black-on the credit side of the ledger. And for that reason God sees only His righteousness in the believer. That is why the believer has a perfect standing before God. That is why the believer is POSITIONALLY perfect.
That is an excellent explanation Mike!! Positionally perfect.

Quote:
Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.'

To be sanctified (Acts 26:18) means to be set apart unto God. This takes place at the moment of salvation through faith in Christ. At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit places you into union with Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13;Gal 3:26-28; Eph. 4:5). By being placed into union with Christ, the believer shares the righteousness of Christ, His eternal life, His destiny, His heirship, His sonship.

This is why the believer is a saint even while still a sinner. No matter what sins you commit as a believer, God sees only His perfect righteousness in you. You still come under divine discipline in time for sin, but your eternal salvation is not an issue. The disobedient believer is simply disciplined as a son. Disobedience is handled as a family matter as per Prov. 3:11-12; Heb. 12:5-13; and Rev. 3:19-21.

Positional Sanctification occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.

Experiential Sanctification occurs at the point of the believer growing up spiritually to the point of maturity in his spiritual life.

Ultimate Sanctification occurs at the point of the resurrection of the body.

For anyone who's interested, here's a link which addresses sanctification.

Sermons Bible Studies Scripture Index

Even though the church-age believer is a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), he still retains the old sin nature in the cell structure of his body. The sin nature was crucified with Christ on the Cross and it has lost its power, but the believer can still be tempted by it and by an act of his own volition, give into the temptation and enter into a state of carnality in which the Holy Spirit is said to be grieved (Eph. 4:30).

And with that in mind, here's another link...

NEW CREATION IN CHRIST


With regard to the commission of a single sin, whether you know it's a sin or not, you wanted to do it and you did it. The solution to having commited a sin is this...

1 John 1:9 If we acknowledge our sins (our known sins) He is faithful (He always forgives the sin) and just (on the basis of the fact that the sin was already judged on the Cross) to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (our unknown sins and sins that we don't remember having committed because we don't keep a short account.)



Willful sinning is characterized by a lifestyle of sinning. The believer doing what he wants to do and if God doesn't like it, then that's too bad. And again, this believer simply comes under divine discipline even to the point of the sin unto death at the extreme, which simply means that the Lord takes the believer out of this life under maximum divine discipline and takes him home in a state of disgrace. No rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, but still saved.
I understand that too about willful sin being characterized by a lifestyle of sinning and being taken home in a state of disgrace. You are right on target and this post goes down as one for my "great posts" file. You have said all that I've been trying to say.....very poorly I might add.... to address each question that someone may have about this "willful" sin situation. Thank you Mike, from the bottom of my heart.
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Old 04-05-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,361,031 times
Reputation: 58122
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Why would a truly born again child of God continue to cut down trees that he/she knows is willful sin? That's what Adam & Eve did, they willfully went against God. What happened to Ananias and Sapphira?
Why? Because we do things like that because we're human!! My question was what do YOU think is the fate of someone who dies in that willful sin?

We've already determined what willful sin is.
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Old 04-05-2010, 02:16 PM
 
Location: New York City
515 posts, read 448,157 times
Reputation: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I hear so much from others about "willful sin" and that you will not inherit the Kingdom of God if you "willfully" sin but isn't this just saying you will not inherit the Kingdom of God if you sin, period? IOW, you must be perfect to go to heaven. Poppycock. We all sin, everyday.....but we must repent everyday.

I don't agree with this and I want to hear others thoughts on it.
A willful Sin is a Sin you constantly continue to sin.
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Old 04-05-2010, 02:17 PM
 
2,250 posts, read 2,644,128 times
Reputation: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post

Why? Because we do things like that because we're human!!
That will not excuse willful sin in God's eyes. If so, Ananias and Sapphira would have been spared.

Quote:
My question was what do YOU think is the fate of someone who dies in that willful sin?
I guess I need to be frank about it: that person will go to hell with the rest of the world's sinners. It only takes one willful sin at the time of death, which has not been previously washed away by the blood of the Lamb, to go to hell with the devil and his angels. To commit willful sin means you're a child of the devil, not God.

Study Ezekiel 33 very well.

Last edited by scgraham; 04-05-2010 at 02:37 PM..
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Old 04-05-2010, 02:25 PM
 
5,501 posts, read 2,494,245 times
Reputation: 5119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I hear so much from others about "willful sin" and that you will not inherit the Kingdom of God if you "willfully" sin but isn't this just saying you will not inherit the Kingdom of God if you sin, period? IOW, you must be perfect to go to heaven. Poppycock. We all sin, everyday.....but we must repent everyday.

I don't agree with this and I want to hear others thoughts on it.
To "KNOWINGLY DECEIVE" is a "wilfull sin" and the sin against the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:1-9 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possesion.

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part,and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Ananias and his wife did not have to give anything at all, for it was theirs to do whatever they wished with it, but they chose to pretend to believe God and gave.

All sins can be forgiven except the sin of the Holy Spirit!


5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all of them that heard these things.

8 And Peter answered unto her,Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? and she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the LORD? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

THE WAGES OF "WILLFULL SIN" IS DEATH!

Blessings...
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Old 04-05-2010, 02:29 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,361,031 times
Reputation: 58122
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
That will not excuse willful sin in God's eyes. If so, Ananias and Sapphira would have been spared.
The blood of Jesus covers all sins, past, present and future. His death on the cross was enough to cover any willful sin. Remember, one cannot be snatched from the Father's hand.....we are His when we accept Jesus as our Savior by faith.


Quote:
I guess I need to be frank about it: that person will go to hell with the rest of the world's sinners. It only takes one willful sin at the time of death, which has not been previously washed away be the blood of the Lamb, to go to hell with the devil and his angels. To commit willful sin means you're a child of the devil, not God.
That's what I was afraid you were going to say. All I can do is refer you back to Mike555's excellent post.
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Old 04-05-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,330,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post

Thank you Mike, from the bottom of my heart.
Excellent post as well Mike.
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