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Actually, the second death is eternal torment. There are seven kinds of death classified in the Bible.
1) Spiritual Death-separation from God in time. Rom. 5:12, 6:23, 1 Cor. 2:14.
2) Physical Death-separation of the soul from the body. Matt. 8:22, 2 Cor. 5:8.
3) Temporal Death-carnality, under the control of the old sin nature. Rom. 8:6; Eph5:14,18; 1 Timothy 5:6.
4) Positional Death-man's position in Adam for which cause we inherit the old sin nature. Rom. 6:6-14, Col. 3:3
5) Second Death-separation from God for all eternity in conscious torment in the lake of fire. Rev. 20:12-15
6) Operational Death-lack of spiritual production. No fruit evidenced in the believers life. 1 Cor. 3:14-15, James 2:26.
7) Sexual Death-No capability to procreate. Rom. 4:17-21, Heb. 11:12.
The second death is that which is described as such...
(From the preceptaustin.org website)
Perish(622) (Apollumi from apo=away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Rev 9:11) destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.
Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlastng life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).
Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothngless or unconscious existance, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt. 13:42,50)
Revelation 20:10 makes it clear that the beast and the false prophet, as well as Satan, and by extension all fallen angels, will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The beast and the false prophet are both human, and by the time Satan joins them in the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium, they will have already been in conscious torment for a thousand years.
But this is sort of taking the thread off topic. So I will leave it at this.
I think I know what you're trying to say but not really sure. Could you explain the "Iniquity is the sin of the successful soul" comment?
Ilene,
Transgression of law/knowledge is not counted against us in our innocence. Just the way we would deal with our children. Even the passions of youth are dealt with in long-suffering and patience.
When we set out in the maturity of development to have dominion over others; then we have passed into iniquity. Not many are called unto Christ when they have been successful in their attempt to rule over others.
Our sins reach unto heaven when in the name of Jesus we become exalted in our hearts with the thought that Jesus has authorized us to dominate over his body. No matter how we might feign to serve; domination is a stink in the incense. It is a bad smell no matter how much doctrine we might employ to defend our actions.
Our Lord Jesus said that if his kingdom was of this world, then his servants would fight to deliver him from the Jews.
Ilene, you know that June is not a believer. If that totally discounts her words, then all would do well to skip this post, and stop reading here.
LOL...no need to be timid and your words are just as important as anyone else's here.
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The difficulty that even "the June" has with what you posted above is the fact that it would seem to reduce Christianity to an "either/or" type of belief system. Somehow, even for June, this doesn't quite "line up" with all that she reads, knows, and is compelled to ponder about your faith. --On the one hand, Christianity is (yes? no?) fundamentally about having a relationship with Christ. Despite all those (now deleted posts by June) having to do with how one is saved, if one is saved, and of course the ongoing "ET v. UR" debate about where one does or doesn't go when they die and if they are saved (really, folks, the majority were posted on Easter!) it would seem to June that somehow, that "either/or" mindset does NOT 'line up with' what a "personal relationship" truly entails.
It is so much more complicated than just an either/or situation, IMO. Yes, it's either heaven or hell but it seems to be, as evidenced by this thread, that the "how to get to one or the other" is highly debatable. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. I think one has to come to a peace about it in their own mind and heart and not worry about what someone else is saying. It is all about having a relationship with Christ, and it all gets complicated (we make it that way) after that.
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That being said, it seems to the nonbelieving June that while any relationship has it's boundaries/parameters, that nonetheless, when it comes (especially comes!) to a "relationship" with a deity, a GOD, that it isn't going to be quite so clearly cut. If it was, we wouldn't have the myriad denominations that fight here, daily. So: It's either a "personal relationship" or it's....what? In other words, would June's "personal relationship" with Christ (don't get all excited...it's an example, folks!) be the same, identical relationship as yours? EVEN IF June claimed "Yup. It's bible-based." ????
No it isn't so clearly cut. The Bible can be interpreted in SO many ways and that's why there's 30,000 different denominations!! Yikes!! It all boils down to that personal relationship with Christ and trusting the Holy Spirit to guide you into understanding the Bible. Obviously we can't all be right....but someone DOES have it right. And we all think it is us. And yes, your relationship with Christ (if only) would be totally different than mine.
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As regards the fat woman and the drug addict: June can't fathom any god casting an over-eater or an addict to hell. Sorry, but this little "just June" heathen can't. June can't fathom that based upon what you all say on this forum each and every day. On the one hand, it's a loving god. On the other, two pizzas that might lead to three would cast one into hell? June just doesn't get it. (Actually, she's been on this forum long enough that she does, however, she is making a genuine effort to address the point.)
I can't fathom it either that's why I'm having such a problem with it. Not if they are truly saved. I don't believe for a second that one who has received Christ is going to hell.
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Example: At some point tonight, June has to return the phone call of a 23 year old girl who is desperate to get off of drugs. Prescription drugs, alcohol, and most of all, heroin. June has never seen, never known anyone who wanted to be whole, to be well, than this young woman. She has also never met or worked with anyone who truly wanted it more. If she could, she would cast away her "willful sin" in a heartbeat. It would be an insult to her to think that she would not. She has suffered more, lost more than most middle aged people June knows. June cannot (for reasons obvious) "bring her to Christ" in order for her to overcome her addiction. (But you all could quite possibly pray for her....Just a thought, from a nonbeliever...) Nonetheless, whatever constitutes your notion of the "Holy Spirit" also needs to be upheld here...
(See where June's going? She's just reflecting back what you all say, every day...Every day....)
Well I most certainly will pray for this young lady, that she will come to know Christ and that she can begin to heal and become the person she truly wants to be. I have a special place in my heart for people like this, as you do, and the thought of hell for them is more than I can bear. It's making me tear up right now. I'll be praying that the Holy Spirit will start working in her and that she will seek out Christ for herself. And yes, I understand where you're coming from.....what we say should be what we do.
Transgression of law/knowledge is not counted against us in our innocence. Just the way we would deal with our children. Even the passions of youth are dealt with in long-suffering and patience.
When we set out in the maturity of development to have dominion over others; then we have passed into iniquity. Not many are called unto Christ when they have been successful in their attempt to rule over others.
Our sins reach unto heaven when in the name of Jesus we become exalted in our hearts with the thought that Jesus has authorized us to dominate over his body. No matter how we might feign to serve; domination is a stink in the incense. It is a bad smell no matter how much doctrine we might employ to defend our actions.
Our Lord Jesus said that if his kingdom was of this world, then his servants would fight to deliver him from the Jews.
Eojj
I think I see what you are saying now.....if we become self-righteous and try and rule over others claiming our own self-righteousness to be what gives us the right to do so, then we don't really know Christ? I can agree with that assessment.
I think I see what you are saying now.....if we become self-righteous and try and rule over others claiming our own self-righteousness to be what gives us the right to do so, then we don't really know Christ? I can agree with that assessment.
Absolutely..... it is self-righteousness (Pride) that elevates one too believe they have attain the privilege of superiority over other's! When one begins to do this they truly have turned from their first love and placed self on the throne of God.....
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
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When we set out in the maturity of development to have dominion over others; then we have passed into iniquity. Not many are called unto Christ when they have been successful in their attempt to rule over others.
Our sins reach unto heaven when in the name of Jesus we become exalted in our hearts with the thought that Jesus has authorized us to dominate over his body. No matter how we might feign to serve; domination is a stink in the incense. It is a bad smell no matter how much doctrine we might employ to defend our actions.
Yes, people slip, and if you have your trust in God, he will help you get back on trak.
Ilene insists that someone has said one must be perfect to be Christian, but I haven't seen anyone say that. Anyway, that is not the case, everyone slips and sins in some way.
Ilene insists because people HAVE said that. There are several people right here on this forum who claim you must be sinless to see heaven. I won't name names but we all know who they are.
I persoanlly view willfull much as we do intent in our laws. Its the difference between murder and recklesss manslaughter. One you actaully plan the muder and that is the intent of your actions. The other death of another is not what you intend but you reckless disregard that the out come may end in a death.
Yes, exactly. Once you are saved, you are saved, but we still sin. However, the Holy Spirit will make you aware of the sin and you will feel increasingly uncomfortable about it. This is why believers usually make an effort to eliminate habitual sins from their lives. That is why drug users and drunks quit their habits soon after they have been saved. Christ empowers them to overcome it. Daily drug use and continued drunkendness are such obvious violations that is rare to see born again Christians continue to commit them in their daily lives. Other things are more difficult to overcome, such as outbursts of anger in traffic. Such incidents can happen, they are spontaneous and not planned, like smoking crack. If you are going to smoke crack, you need to find the money, then purchase the drug, and then get situated to consume it. So, it is definetly more willful, and deliberate than momentarily losing it in traffic. There is the difference between the willful and nor willful again.
1 John 3:4-10
That is true. I truly believe that Jesus is able help you overcome the most addictive of sins. Some addictions are much more difficult to stop because our body craves them, but someone that truly wants to obey Jesus will avail themselves of whatever help is necessary to do so. Those who give up, their faith is not strong enough to believe that Jesus can do it, or they really don't want to give them up.
Willful sin is knowing that something is a sin, but rationalizing it in your mind so that you can continue doing it. However, if you are truly saved, the Holy Spirit will continue to convict you until you come to recognize it as sin and will do everything in your power to stop it. Even outbursts of anger in traffic after you are convicted, over and over, and you keep dismissing it as something that you can't help, or part of your personality, is willful disobedience. It is when you realize that cursing at another driver (even if he can't here you) is not a "fruit of the spirit", and you repent and ask Jesus to give you the ability to change your attitude, that he will help you to react differently to annoyances.
That is true. I truly believe that Jesus is able help you overcome the most addictive of sins.
Yes, Jesus can most certainly do that. But what if it never happens? What then? I posed this question to several of the other posters so I didn't want you to feel left out.
Yes, Jesus can most certainly do that. But what if it never happens? What then? I posed this question to several of the other posters so I didn't want you to feel left out.
If it never happens then you are suffering the consequences of living the freedom that comes from Christ. I don't think God sits up there thinking of new ways to control people, he wants us to live free enjoying the love he gave us. The reason so many things were considered sin is because they could cause problems in life.
This is why Paul says al things are good but not all things are edifying. You could sit and have a glass of wine, smoke a little pot, take a pain killer, etc. but in that freedom you run the risk turning that into a negative.
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it would seem to June that somehow, that "either/or" mindset does NOT 'line up with' what a "personal relationship" truly entails.
) would be totally different than mine.
