Book of the law V.S. Ten commandments (Torah, hell, lukewarm)

[hilgi]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

Dale...LEWard...Robin...and Hot...what a wonderful thread to read...God's Truth is spreading like wildfire! I am so encouraged in what God is doing in the hearts and minds of those who truly love Him enough to let go of living in sin, and instead, choose to live their lives in obedience to His EVERY WORD.

It is liberty to know and understand the difference between Moses' laws, and God's hand-written-in-stone Ten Commandments...and live IN them!

I just love God and His Word so very, very much...

God Bless you,
Love,
Verna.

Ya lets forget that pesky Cross, sure it was cool what Jesus did but bring back the law!

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by LEWard

katjonjj said



Based on scripture I'd say you're both right. Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

katjonjj said

Has it been working better for the last 1900+ years without much respect given to the Law?

katjonjj said

That's the way God felt about it too. But since Israel proved themselves incapable of obedience He implemented sacrifices. He tried to make stupid hurt. Jer 7:22-23 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’" So are you saying disobedience is no longer stupid?

katjonjj said

Wow! Now I wonder where He got that from? Could it be He went to the Law to reinforce His teaching? Deu 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." Lev 19:18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."

katjonjj said

Certainly not the 10, since they tell you how to love God and your neighbor. If you love God and your neighbor, why would you have a problem with the 10? Deu 11:22 "For if you carefully keep all these commandments which I command you to do––to love the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways, and to hold fast to Him––" If one loves God one is conducting himself based on His instruction and example. Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

katjonjj said

Aren't you aware that our Creator spoke the 10 Himself from Mt. Sinai. He also wrote them himself with His own finger. (Deu 4:12-13, Ex 31:18) He calls it His covenant and His ways (Deu 8:6). Did He write anything else with His own hand or speak to any other people about any other things in this way?

The Law, the 613, on the other hand were "added because of transgressions" (Gal 3:19). Deu 31:24 "So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;" Obviously, the Law was added, just like the sacrifices, because they wouldn't walk in His ways, i.e. keep His commandments.

Transgressions of what? Well, His covenant was certainly established almost 40 years earlier. Since they couldn't obey His covenant, rather than destroy them he established the Law at the behest of Moses. Ps 106:23 "Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them." Some is not what He wanted. So since He was set to destroy them because they failed to obey His minimum level instruction that explains how to love God and how to love ones neighbor, why do you think you will fare any better if you ignore it? Mat 19:17 'So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."'

Please, let's consider the whole book and diligently seek Him.

Leward

You missed the part about not being under the old covenant.. I am a gentile. I never had a covenant with God to obey the commandments. That law was written for the Israelites... I am under the law of Grace or the new covenant.. aren't you?

Therefore, those who subject themselves to the ten or the 613 are slaves to the law... not slaves to grace...

Right? All those verses you quoted were spoken by and to people under the old covenant...

[Eojj]

Since there are varied thoughts concerning the issue, it seems good and useful to review some of the OT witness.

Ex 31:18
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.KJV

Ex 32:15-16
15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.KJV

Ex 32:19
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. KJV

Ex 34:1
:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. KJV

Ex 34:4
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. KJV

Ex 34:27-28
27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.KJV

Ex 34:29
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. KJV

As you read this record there appears before your thoughts, new thoughts as to the second set of stones (which was what remained) and their writing.

Jer 17:1
7:1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars; KJV

Eojj

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by RobinD69

Love God and love others as yourself.

Therefore all other commandments stem from these two..

You do realize you cannot truly experience the two without the other eight? How can you love others and still murder them or lie to them? How can you love God and still be trapped in sin? You can not serve two master you will either love one and hate the other, if you love your sin and serve it by your actions then you are hating God by your very actions of rebellion.

This speaks volumes to what I was thinking, but to often this is cast aside by those who challenge scripture.

Ironically one would claim I am not a Jew thus I do not have the law, but what does Paul himself say and honestly quite early in his epistle.....

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law.

15 Since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary covers this quite well.

The Jews thought themselves a holy people, entitled to their privileges by right, while they were unthankful, rebellious, and unrighteous. But all who act thus, of every nation, age, and description, must be reminded that the judgment of God will be according to their real character. The case is so plain, that we may appeal to the sinner's own thoughts. In every wilful sin, there is contempt of the goodness of God. And though the branches of man's disobedience are very various, all spring from the same root. But in true repentance, there must be hatred of former sinfulness, from a change wrought in the state of the mind, which disposes it to choose the good and to refuse the evil. It shows also a sense of inward wretchedness. Such is the great change wrought in repentance, it is conversion, and is needed by every human being. The ruin of sinners is their walking after a hard and impenitent heart. Their sinful doings are expressed by the strong words, treasuring up wrath. In the description of the just man, notice the full demand of the law. It demands that the motives shall be pure, and rejects all actions from earthly ambition or ends. In the description of the unrighteous, contention is held forth as the principle of all evil. The human will is in a state of enmity against God. Even Gentiles, who had not the written law, had that within, which directed them what to do by the light of nature. Conscience is a witness, and first or last will bear witness. As they nature. Conscience is a witness, and first or last will bear witness. As they kept or broke these natural laws and dictates, their consciences either acquitted or condemned them. Nothing speaks more terror to sinners, and more comfort to saints, than that Christ shall be the Judge. Secret services shall be rewarded, secret sins shall be then punished, and brought to light.

With even more irony those who claim not to be of the law because of not being Jewish or that the Jews themselves were a primitive and savage people do not understand they are commiting the very acts the Jews did. Keep up the faith in Christ.

[hilgi]

Originally Posted by Aschultz73

This speaks volumes to what I was thinking, but to often this is cast aside by those who challenge scripture.

What she says doesn't make any sense.

If you murder, steal, lie, etc. you are not loving. Hence the law is made up of love. Why do you need a list to follow when we just need love?

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by hilgi

What she says doesn't make any sense.

If you murder, steal, lie, etc. you are not loving. Hence the law is made up of love. Why do you need a list to follow when we just need love?

It makes perfect sense when faced with the fact that the law has not been made void nor is it cast aside by the pesky cross as you imply.

(On a side not this person is a He not a She, I made the same mistake)
The problem you do not understand is that there are two forms of love. The first which is Christian is Agape. This is the love of Christ which only Christians have. Not one can lay claim to Agape if they do not have Christ.

The second is the love which is of the flesh or of Eros. The Rapist has this love when he lusts after a woman and then ultimately rapes her. The theif has this love when he covets the item and ultimately steals it. The rest follow a logical conclusion.

The Bible no where states we just need love. The Bible tells us to discern what is truth from what is false. The Bible tells us to test what is of Christ from what is not of Christ. What you are confusing is the difference between the judgement of sin (which is coming) and the present conviction the sinner feels when faced with the reality of their own sin. To often those who claim love do not understand it is because of love or Agape that Christians speak against and do not allow sin amongst themselves.

Now of course there are those who have been persecuted by Christians wrongly and judged. The man who cheats on his wife without repentance, and then condemns the homosexual is a perfect example. These people will have to reckon with this. They in fact make Christianity and more importantly God false in doing this. But the Christian who stands up for truth discerns correctly what is sin and what is not.

A good book you might read is Pastor John Macarthur entitled Fool's Gold. You do not even have to read much of it as a good majority of what you claim to not make sense is covered in chapter 1. Pastor Macarthur clearly states on page 24......

Obviously, what Jesus condemned was the hypocritical judgment of those who held others to a higher standard than they themselves were willing to live by.

And to go back to your comment about getting around the pesky cross, I addressed this in my initial reply post to this OP.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Aschultz73

The problem you do not understand is that there are two forms of love. The first which is Christian is Agape. This is the love of Christ which only Christians have. Not one can lay claim to Agape if they do not have Christ.

Yet by saying the above statement you are contradicting the very passage you quote... If gentiles can love and be considered as fulfilling the law then there is no reason they need to 'have Christ'.
Fulfilling the law makes no sense to a gentile because they were never under the law. The gentile that follows the law on 'accident' is just as righteous as the Jew that does follow the law on purpose. That is what that passage is saying but now you seem to want it to say that the gentiles must believe in Jesus as well... how does that work? Either you are under the law or under grace... which one do you suppose the atheist is under?

The Bible no where states we just need love. The Bible tells us to discern what is truth from what is false. The Bible tells us to test what is of Christ from what is not of Christ. What you are confusing is the difference between the judgement of sin (which is coming) and the present conviction the sinner feels when faced with the reality of their own sin. To often those who claim love do not understand it is because of love or Agape that Christians speak against and do not allow sin amongst themselves.

"of Christ" is a term used to say that one is following the ways of Christ not that they are required to believe Christ existed. If everyone in the world knows a sin is a sin.. then there is no use for the written laws as they are now embedded in a person's heart.

Now of course there are those who have been persecuted by Christians wrongly and judged. The man who cheats on his wife without repentance, and then condemns the homosexual is a perfect example. These people will have to reckon with this. They in fact make Christianity and more importantly God false in doing this. But the Christian who stands up for truth discerns correctly what is sin and what is not.

To each his own sin. It is written that a sin to one man may not be a sin to another... so how do you rectify that line of thought with the law?

Basically you are saying the opposite of that very passage. You are saying (and correct me if I misunderstand) that even though we are able to discern what is good and right within ourselves.. that is not good enough.. we must believe in Christ and God. When the passage is clearly stating (IMO) that one that doesn't believe yet follows the law because that is what is right and good is just the same as someone who does believe. Belief in Christ is not a condition of salvation.. again IMO.

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

Yet by saying the above statement you are contradicting the very passage you quote... If gentiles can love and be considered as fulfilling the law then there is no reason they need to 'have Christ'.
Fulfilling the law makes no sense to a gentile because they were never under the law. The gentile that follows the law on 'accident' is just as righteous as the Jew that does follow the law on purpose. That is what that passage is saying but now you seem to want it to say that the gentiles must believe in Jesus as well... how does that work? Either you are under the law or under grace... which one do you suppose the atheist is under?


"of Christ" is a term used to say that one is following the ways of Christ not that they are required to believe Christ existed. If everyone in the world knows a sin is a sin.. then there is no use for the written laws as they are now embedded in a person's heart.

To each his own sin. It is written that a sin to one man may not be a sin to another... so how do you rectify that line of thought with the law?

Basically you are saying the opposite of that very passage. You are saying (and correct me if I misunderstand) that even though we are able to discern what is good and right within ourselves.. that is not good enough.. we must believe in Christ and God. When the passage is clearly stating (IMO) that one that doesn't believe yet follows the law because that is what is right and good is just the same as someone who does believe. Belief in Christ is not a condition of salvation.. again IMO.

I am contradicting nothing. How ironic that which professes Universalism which is built upon contradiction accuses a Christian of contradiction. But again as I have told you numerous times before you do not understand scripture.

Where did I say that the Gentiles fulfill the law? It is clear what is intended and meant by the scripture is that Gentiles had the law upon their hearts because God placed it there. Just because they did not have it written as the Jews did, did not grant them ignorance of the law. Being made in the image of God all man is subject to the law because the image they are created after is the Lawgiver Himself. You attempted to show yourself seperate from the Jews by some idea you have of covenant. You fail to understand that the Bible is a book of progression, but not of seperation of any peoples. All humans fall under the same condemnation of the Law. Try as you might you can not escape this fact.

Your assertion "Of Christ" holds no merit. I am unsure where you are going, but it is clearly not what it means. Those of Christ are Christians, those not of Christ are not Christian. You can not understand because your glory lies in UR which is contradictory on so many levels.

It does not matter if we are good or evil as scripture is clear man is seperated from God. Only thru Christ can one attain God. Even the majority of Universalists profess this using it as the foundation for their belief. But unlike Christians they add in a "trial by fire" so to speak not supported by any of scripture. Not one verse of the whole stands by it. Ironically I now feel not only do you not understand Christianity itself, but also the Universalism many here profess and you claim is your salvation.

Your assertion of what the passage says falls against every Christian commentary I know of. It is what Universalism ultimately leads to for many. False assertions interpreted by the sinner to mean what the sinner wants, but not what God clearly has stated. Im sorry if this may feel harsh to you, but that is what Christianity is.

On a side note my first post on this thread addresses the law. Much of what you state incorrectly here is clearly covered. But of course as always you look to prove what you want it to say, but not what God has clearly spoken.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by hilgi

Ya lets forget that pesky Cross, sure it was cool what Jesus did but bring back the law!

Actually, what you have failed to understand is this.

The cross did NOT nullify the 10 Commandments. Rather the cross did nullify your transgressions made against God and man, which was made manifest through the 10 Commandments. Paul says:

Rom 13:9
For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," AND if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

This is the entire basis for law. How do I know this? Next verse:

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

What law? ALL LAW!!

It is time to wake up. Really, it is. It is time we, as God's people, and not the devil's children, wake up to the reality of why Christ came into this 'world'. Why Christ preached. Why Christ died. And what that did for those WHO BELIEVE.

Next verse:

Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

Really? I thought salvation came with a simple prayer? No! We need to wake up. It is time for the Light to shine through YOU. The 'night' or darkness is fading fast. The time of the times is approaching. The Children of God must make the stand, and stand upon the Rock of Salvation.

Next verse:

The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

In case anyone hasn't figured this out yet, Paul is not refering to daytime, and nighttime. He is refering to the dark hardness of our hearts being transformed into a heart of God. But the reflection in the water must fade away. The shame we feel from the guilt of sin must be washed with the Living Waters. Baptized into His Glory.

Can you see it?

This discussion would not even be happening, if we were already there. Instead people try and justify sin away, using the Lambs Blood as a scapegoat. Well, He isn't a goat. He is a Lamb. And in order to use the Lamb, there must be a sincere repentant heart, willing to set aside this life, and this life's desires, for His desires. Only He can do this, if we but let Him. In fact, He is PLEASED to do this for His Own.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by hilgi

What she says doesn't make any sense.

If you murder, steal, lie, etc. you are not loving. Hence the law is made up of love. Why do you need a list to follow when we just need love?

In an ideal world, this may be. In the New Earth and New Heaven, it will be.

But, we are humans. There needs to be a level of accountability. Otherwise, if we take for granted, out of love mind you, what anyone does claiming to do it out of love,,,,then skys the limit on what the imaginations of mankind can come up with.

Some of the most horrific things done in the name of God, were supposedly done out of love. You know these stories. We even have them today.

Close nit communities of fellowship even need the law written in Stone, even though they have the law of love so firmly planted in their hearts.

What if, again, human desire takes over the spiritual desire. Let's say lust springs forth in a Christian, to a married person. But they mistake it for love? Without the law of covetedness, then a man may plead a case on behalf of love, but in reality, he is committing sin. And by letting this slide, judically,,,out of love, the whole of the community now becomes infected. Darkness enters. Perhaps not bad at first, but by the time you reach the 3 and 4th generations, you would not even recognize the original any longer. It(sin) is a evil seduction.


There was a reason it was written in Stone and protected inside the ark. It was to endure the test of time.