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I am contradicting nothing. How ironic that which professes Universalism which is built upon contradiction accuses a Christian of contradiction. But again as I have told you numerous times before you do not understand scripture.
Where did I say that the Gentiles fulfill the law? It is clear what is intended and meant by the scripture is that Gentiles had the law upon their hearts because God placed it there. Just because they did not have it written as the Jews did, did not grant them ignorance of the law. Being made in the image of God all man is subject to the law because the image they are created after is the Lawgiver Himself. You attempted to show yourself seperate from the Jews by some idea you have of covenant. You fail to understand that the Bible is a book of progression, but not of seperation of any peoples. All humans fall under the same condemnation of the Law. Try as you might you can not escape this fact.
EXACTLY! So if everyone (ALL MANKIND) is under the same law which is admittedly WRITTEN in their hearts by God then we know that there can be two different sets of 'rules'... one for the Jew and one for the gentile. However, even the Jew doesn't have to be under the law if they choose to be under the law of grace. However you interpret it.. IF everyone is under the same standards then everyone is allotted the same grace.
How can you say that no one is ignorant of the law (written in their hearts and, according to Jer 31, part of the New Covenant) yet those who follow the law but do not believe are punished for eternity with burning torture?
How does the eternal torture fit it if ALL have SINNED and ALL fall short yet ALL know the right thing to do? IF ALL are equal why are some people (who simply don't believe in the UNSEEN the same as another) doomed to spend eternity in hell it is written that ALL will bow down?
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Your assertion "Of Christ" holds no merit. I am unsure where you are going, but it is clearly not what it means. Those of Christ are Christians, those not of Christ are not Christian. You can not understand because your glory lies in UR which is contradictory on so many levels.
The reason I cannot understand is because I see Jesus as having paid the ransom. You see that with some people (who do not believe exactly as you about the unseen) will have to pay their own so basically God reneged on his letting the captive go after the ransom was already paid.
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It does not matter if we are good or evil as scripture is clear man is seperated from God. Only thru Christ can one attain God. Even the majority of Universalists profess this using it as the foundation for their belief. But unlike Christians they add in a "trial by fire" so to speak not supported by any of scripture. Not one verse of the whole stands by it. Ironically I now feel not only do you not understand Christianity itself, but also the Universalism many here profess and you claim is your salvation.
This trial by fire is more supported than a burning mass of people in a pit of darkness forever... but I digress. My comment above can be in response to this as well. If ANYONE goes to "hell" then God reneged on his setting the captives free after the ransom was paid by Christ!
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Your assertion of what the passage says falls against every Christian commentary I know of. It is what Universalism ultimately leads to for many. False assertions interpreted by the sinner to mean what the sinner wants, but not what God clearly has stated. Im sorry if this may feel harsh to you, but that is what Christianity is.
Now you are justifying your action by saying Christianity is normally harsh? LOL I don't feel you are harsh at all.. I even said to let me know if what I understand about your belief is amiss. Yet I think you are missing the point. IF EVEN ONE person is not ransomed then you cannot believe this verse:
UNLESS you think God accepted the ransom but kept some people captive.
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On a side note my first post on this thread addresses the law. Much of what you state incorrectly here is clearly covered. But of course as always you look to prove what you want it to say, but not what God has clearly spoken.
On the contrary, I read your entire post. I see that you think somehow God will not accept the life of Christ as ransom for people who believe differently than you EVEN WHEN they follow THE LAW.
Therefore all other commandments stem from these two..
Amen! But you seem to have it backwards in the next paragraph, Robin. These TWO express the true Spirit of the law . . . the reason we had laws in the first place. To teach us that we are supposed to "love God and each other" . . . not the things of this world. The reason for the laws was NOT for God to have obedient "pets."
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You do realize you cannot truly experience the two without the other eight? How can you love others and still murder them or lie to them? How can you love God and still be trapped in sin? You can not serve two master you will either love one and hate the other, if you love your sin and serve it by your actions then you are hating God by your very actions of rebellion.
You do realize that you cannot TRULY love anyone and murder or lie to them. But it covers oh so much more, Robin . . . you can't hurt them, deceive them, let them starve, let them be killed by others if you can stop it, . . . etc. The TWO commandments cover FAR MORE than the TEN . . . because they represent the TRUE Spirit of the law . . . NOT the Letter. They are meant to foster love . . . NOT obedience. We are not pets in obedience trials . . . we are children maturing into Spirits to be reborn upon our death . . . as Jesus was.
EXACTLY! So if everyone (ALL MANKIND) is under the same law which is admittedly WRITTEN in their hearts by God then we know that there can be two different sets of 'rules'... one for the Jew and one for the gentile. However, even the Jew doesn't have to be under the law if they choose to be under the law of grace. However you interpret it.. IF everyone is under the same standards then everyone is allotted the same grace.
How can you say that no one is ignorant of the law (written in their hearts and, according to Jer 31, part of the New Covenant) yet those who follow the law but do not believe are punished for eternity with burning torture?
How does the eternal torture fit it if ALL have SINNED and ALL fall short yet ALL know the right thing to do? IF ALL are equal why are some people (who simply don't believe in the UNSEEN the same as another) doomed to spend eternity in hell it is written that ALL will bow down?
The reason I cannot understand is because I see Jesus as having paid the ransom. You see that with some people (who do not believe exactly as you about the unseen) will have to pay their own so basically God reneged on his letting the captive go after the ransom was already paid.
This trial by fire is more supported than a burning mass of people in a pit of darkness forever... but I digress. My comment above can be in response to this as well. If ANYONE goes to "hell" then God reneged on his setting the captives free after the ransom was paid by Christ!
Now you are justifying your action by saying Christianity is normally harsh? LOL I don't feel you are harsh at all.. I even said to let me know if what I understand about your belief is amiss. Yet I think you are missing the point. IF EVEN ONE person is not ransomed then you cannot believe this verse:
UNLESS you think God accepted the ransom but kept some people captive.
On the contrary, I read your entire post. I see that you think somehow God will not accept the life of Christ as ransom for people who believe differently than you EVEN WHEN they follow THE LAW.
You throw stones out of a desire to throw more than having a reason to throw them. You attempt to use scripture and you continue to abound in error. When will you put down your pride and come to the truth? You have not read nor understood anything I have written and can only glean so far as the limitation you place upon yourself by your own free will professing Universalism.
You claim the scripture of Paul using Timothy which means you accept Paul as an authority or am I to conclude it is like the rest of your attempts to use scripture. A piece taken from the whole meant to mean something different than when it exists with the whole.
You claim you are under the New Covenant so lets see what the New Testament says about the Law.
1) Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me. ACTS 14:15 covers this.
2) Thous shalt not make unto thee any graven image. 1 Corinthians covers this.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they God in vain. Colossians 3:8 covers this
4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Colossians 2:16 covers this.
5) Honor they father and they mother. Colossians 3:20 covers this.
6) Thou shalt not kill. Romans 13:8,9 covers this.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery. Hebrews 13:4 covers this.
8) Thou shalt not steal. Ephesians 4:28 covers this.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness. Colossians 3:9 covers this
10) Thou shalt not covet. Ephesians 5:3
Thus the Christians obeying the commandments of The Most High God must not relax moral restraint. Grace sets the standard higher than ever, but also provides the divine enablement to meet them. The grace that brings us salvation also disciplines the unbeliever to deny all ungodliness and wordly lusts teaching us to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age (Titus 2:11,12)
The Holy Spirit produces righteousness in the heart of the believer. Those not found in Christ have no claim to the Holy Spirit and thus has nothing of the Spirit produced in them. By this Christian character is not achieved by an imitation of Christ, but by allowing Christ Himself to live through us. For Christians know He does live in us.(Galatians 2:20)
But Paul clearly stated this when he stated.....
Romans 8:3,4 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
You keep going back to your errors because you are a Universalist. You have no foundation in your claims no matter how much you try. You can not contend with Christianity. You continue to attempt to make points not knowing you sink deeper into your own errors. As I have said when looking to throw stones you will throw them purely by your desire, but not because you have a legitimate reason.
Last edited by Aschultz73; 04-07-2010 at 09:47 PM..
You throw stones out of a desire to throw more than having a reason to throw them. You attempt to use scripture and you continue to abound in error. When will you put down your pride and come to the truth? You have not read nor understood anything I have written and can only glean so far as the limitation you place upon yourself by your own free will professing Universalism.
You claim the scripture of Paul using Timothy which means you accept Paul as an authority or am I to conclude it is like the rest of your attempts to use scripture. A piece taken from the whole meant to mean something different than when it exists with the whole.
You claim you are under the New Covenant so lets see what the New Testament says about the Law.
1) Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me. ACTS 14:15 covers this.
2) Thous shalt not make unto thee any graven image. 1 Corinthians covers this.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they God in vain. Colossians 3:8 covers this
4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Colossians 2:16 covers this.
5) Honor they father and they mother. Colossians 3:20 covers this.
6) Thou shalt not kill. Romans 13:8,9 covers this.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery. Hebrews 13:4 covers this.
8) Thou shalt not steal. Ephesians 4:28 covers this.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness. Colossians 3:9 covers this
10) Thou shalt not covet. Ephesians 5:3
Thus the Christians obeying the commandments of The Most High God must not relax moral restraint. Grace sets the standard higher than ever, but also provides the divine enablement to meet them. The grace that brings us salvation also disciplines the unbeliever to deny all ungodliness and wordly lusts teaching us to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age (Titus 2:11,12)
The Holy Spirit produces righteousness in the heart of the believer. Those not found in Christ have no claim to the Holy Spirit and thus has nothing of the Spirit produced in them. By this Christian character is not achieved by an imitation of Christ, but by allowing Christ Himself to live through us. For Christians know He does live in us.(Galatians 2:20)
But Paul clearly stated this when he stated.....
Romans 8:3,4 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
You keep going back to your errors because you are a Universalist. You have no foundation in your claims no matter how much you try. You can not contend with Christianity. You continue to attempt to make points not knowing you sink deeper into your own errors. As I have said when looking to throw stones you will throw them purely by your desire, but not because you have a legitimate reason.
I have no idea where you get I am "throwing stones" or contending with Christianity... I simply said (in a long winded post) that if Christ paid the ransom for sin then unless God went back on his word to set the captive free then all of man's sins are not counted against him.
I believe the holy spirit was poured out on the world, and is not an exclusively Christian tool.
Another way to say what I have already said is that if all sins are forgiven and remembered no more.. then what are people frying in hell for? Not believing in the unseen? That sounds a bit odd.. wouldn't you say? Yet the majority of Christianity believes this.
You can conclude what you will but there is no reason for me to think that Christ ransomed only the godly when he specifically came to save the ungodly.
"You missed the part about not being under the old covenant.. I am a gentile. I never had a covenant with God to obey the commandments. That law was written for the Israelites... I am under the law of Grace or the new covenant.. aren't you?"
Thank you for asking. Actually the New Covenant that the Creator makes is with Israel and Judah. Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah–– 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." If you're thinking of some other covenant, perhaps you can clarify that.
Likely it is talking of spiritual Israel, the congregation of God. Of course, the gentiles can be grafted in (Rom 11:13-21). Notice though that with the New Covenant the Laws of God are written on the hearts and minds of those that participate. One knows what is in the heart by what one does, i.e. how they conduct themselves (Deu 8:2). This is why Paul was able to say that gentiles keeping the Law had at least some written on their heart in Romans 2:14-15. They complied with at least some of its instruction.
The New Covenant actually allows us all to benefit from the grace of God. However, He gives grace to the humble and resists the proud (Jas 4:6). One must first repent (Acts 2:38). That means they recognize the error of their ways, determine to change and walk in the ways of God. His ways are the keeping of His commandments (Deu 8:6). They are the essence of how He thinks and relates to others. Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
That is why we need the instruction of all scripture. We don't know what is best for us automatically. Messiah built on what was already given. He didn't toss it and start over. He did not come to destroy the Law, but to do it. 1 John 2:6 "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
Grace allows us to be adopted sons of God (Gal 4:4-7). Being a son of the Father assumes we do the works of our Father. (John 8:39) We are to be Holy and complete like He is, no darkness (1Pet 1:15, Mat 5:48, 1 John 1:5, 7). Those who sin risk being accused of trampling the grace of God and insulting it (Heb 10:26-29). Is there some scriptural definition of sin that isn't connected with the Law?
Kotjonjj said:
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"Therefore, those who subject themselves to the ten or the 613 are slaves to the law... not slaves to grace... Right?"
First, you're talking of two different things. The 10 predated the Law, so because someone keeps the 10 tells us nothing automatically about whether or not they keep the Law. You're not alone in this confusion. Many who talk about the Law don't really know what it is.
In any case there is no condemnation in scripture of anyone who is a slave to the law. The condemnation is of those who are slaves to sin. Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" Obedience to what? What leads to righteousness? Ps 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness." If one wants to be involved in righteousness one should conform to His Commandments.
Kotjonjj said:
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"All those verses you quoted were spoken by and to people under the old covenant..."
Well, if the instruction of Messiah isn't good enough, I hope whatever you put your trust in works for you. The problem though is that if one calls himself a Christian one is supposed to follow Christ and conduct himself as He would. 1 John 3:3 "And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." When this doesn't happen we take the name of God in vain and misrepresent Him. So we get people like Mahatma Ghandi saying things like. “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
This goes for people who claim to keep the law as well as those who do not. Messiah was selfless. Greater love has no man than that. That is the kind of love expected of those who follow Him. (John 13:34)
Amen! But you seem to have it backwards in the next paragraph, Robin. These TWO express the true Spirit of the law . . . the reason we had laws in the first place. To teach us that we are supposed to "love God and each other" . . . not the things of this world. The reason for the laws was NOT for God to have obedient "pets."You do realize that you cannot TRULY love anyone and murder or lie to them. But it covers oh so much more, Robin . . . you can't hurt them, deceive them, let them starve, let them be killed by others if you can stop it, . . . etc. The TWO commandments cover FAR MORE than the TEN . . . because they represent the TRUE Spirit of the law . . . NOT the Letter. They are meant to foster love . . . NOT obedience. We are not pets in obedience trials . . . we are children maturing into Spirits to be reborn upon our death . . . as Jesus was.
I understand that but obedience is an expression of love, it doesnt make one a pet but it does express love for ones creator. Just as lies, murder, and many of the works of the flesh express love for the adversary. I understand that we are all at different levels of maturity and some are stronger or more mature in some area while others are stronger and more mature in others. We are all works in progress and when we overcome an area of the flesh then we have matured in that area but some refuse to mature in some areas and this is bad fruit which must be overcome or in the least acknowledged as an area of weakness.
We all fall short, we hurt people, deceive them, and even let them starve, and we are letting many be killed by others whom we can stop but because of our own pride, greed, selfishness, hate, and so much more we are found to be lukewarm and of no effect neither good or bad, stagnant in our own flesh denying the true Spirit. Jesus was without sin and we are covered by His blood but do we actually live like we appreciate what He has done or are we still rebelious and nonapreciative as shown by our actions.
Remember someday Jesus may call us and say to us "I knew you not" because we sewed to flesh and ignored the spirit thinking we were maturing in the spirit.
I understand that but obedience is an expression of love, it doesnt make one a pet but it does express love for ones creator. Just as lies, murder, and many of the works of the flesh express love for the adversary. I understand that we are all at different levels of maturity and some are stronger or more mature in some area while others are stronger and more mature in others. We are all works in progress and when we overcome an area of the flesh then we have matured in that area but some refuse to mature in some areas and this is bad fruit which must be overcome or in the least acknowledged as an area of weakness.
We all fall short, we hurt people, deceive them, and even let them starve, and we are letting many be killed by others whom we can stop but because of our own pride, greed, selfishness, hate, and so much more we are found to be lukewarm and of no effect neither good or bad, stagnant in our own flesh denying the true Spirit. Jesus was without sin and we are covered by His blood but do we actually live like we appreciate what He has done or are we still rebelious and nonapreciative as shown by our actions.
Remember someday Jesus may call us and say to us "I knew you not" because we sewed to flesh and ignored the spirit thinking we were maturing in the spirit.
So by not watching TV, dancing, listening to rock music and all the other modern Christian sins we are showing "appreciation" for Jesus dying on a cross for us? Do you really think that? You really think you will get a “thumbs up” because you made a decision to turn off your TV after X amount of hours? That is such a human way of thinking.
Jesus is the author of our good works (love), not our self imposed laws, rules, guidelines, and restrictions. We show our appreciation by allowing his love to work through us.
Thank you for asking. Actually the New Covenant that the Creator makes is with Israel and Judah. Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah–– 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." If you're thinking of some other covenant, perhaps you can clarify that.
I am talking about that very covenant... the new covenant that God made with Israel is a better covenant and is extended (according to the NT) to non-Jews as well. I believe that is why it is a covenant that exceeds the old one.
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Likely it is talking of spiritual Israel, the congregation of God. Of course, the gentiles can be grafted in (Rom 11:13-21). Notice though that with the New Covenant the Laws of God are written on the hearts and minds of those that participate. One knows what is in the heart by what one does, i.e. how they conduct themselves (Deu 8:2). This is why Paul was able to say that gentiles keeping the Law had at least some written on their heart in Romans 2:14-15. They complied with at least some of its instruction.
Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.
So you can see that even the original recipients of the law realize that there are only 7 commandments that apply to all people. Those seven are listed in the link provided. So basically the Jews believe you don't have to even know about or believe in God to find favor with him as long as you obey the 7 commandments (which are basic moral principles we all inherently agree upon). These 7 commands are written in the hearts and minds of all people, therefore, the new covenant with the laws written in hearts and minds is in opposition to the old covenant which had those laws (all 613) written in a book and strapped to your forehead and arm for remembrance (which was the shadow of things in the New Covenant) called Phylacteries which was adopted as a literal requirement after the Babylonian captivity. These were also denounced by Christ as laws of men not requirements set forth by God.
From the same site referenced above: Judaism teaches that G-d gave the Jews 613 commandments, not merely ten. The biblical passage known to most people as the "Ten Commandments" is known to Jews as the Aseret ha-Dibrot, the Ten Declarations, and is considered to be ten categories of commandments rather than ten individual commandments.
So what I am saying is that unless you convert to Judaism (which I understand is a long and tedious process) then you are not even required to have a belief in God in order to be favored by God as long as you keep the seven inherent moral principles or commands.
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The New Covenant actually allows us all to benefit from the grace of God. However, He gives grace to the humble and resists the proud (Jas 4:6). One must first repent (Acts 2:38). That means they recognize the error of their ways, determine to change and walk in the ways of God. His ways are the keeping of His commandments (Deu 8:6). They are the essence of how He thinks and relates to others. Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
Our thought is that we should all be punished in hell.... God's thoughts are higher than that.
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That is why we need the instruction of all scripture. We don't know what is best for us automatically. Messiah built on what was already given. He didn't toss it and start over. He did not come to destroy the Law, but to do it. 1 John 2:6 "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
You don't know what is best for you automatically? Are you saying that the atheist doesn't know right from wrong unless they believe in God? I don't agree with that on any level. People know what is right and good and what is not, no matter what religion or non-religion they are a member of.
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Grace allows us to be adopted sons of God (Gal 4:4-7). Being a son of the Father assumes we do the works of our Father. (John 8:39) We are to be Holy and complete like He is, no darkness (1Pet 1:15, Mat 5:48, 1 John 1:5, 7). Those who sin risk being accused of trampling the grace of God and insulting it (Heb 10:26-29). Is there some scriptural definition of sin that isn't connected with the Law?
There is no need for the law when you love your brother as yourself. Why would you think of shedding their blood if you loved them? The definition of sin is missing the mark.. right? So if you murder an intruder in order to save your family you have committed a sin... but for good reason. Had you just broken both legs of the intruder you would not be guilty of the sin of murder... Just because you had good intentions you are still guilty of murder. We see this with police officers who had no choice but to kill yet they feel as if they committed a wrong. They did! But will they suffer eternally for that sin? How would that be fair and just?
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Kotjonjj said:
First, you're talking of two different things. The 10 predated the Law, so because someone keeps the 10 tells us nothing automatically about whether or not they keep the Law. You're not alone in this confusion. Many who talk about the Law don't really know what it is.
According to Judaism the 10 are categories of sins while the 613 are the ones in each category.. the two are inseparable and there was no predating of any. When Moses presented the 10 he broke them... Thus the 10 and the expanded version (613) are the same. One goes into detail and one does not....
Still.. gentiles were NEVER required to even follow the 10.. but only 7 and these were not spelled out for them by any law except that which is already in their heart and mind as to what is right and what is wrong. If a non-Jew (gentile) were to follow the 7 without ever hearing about the other 3 or the 613 then Judaism states they will find favor with God. It is Christianity that has turned the 7 into 10 and the 10 into the 613, which is evident in the way homosexuality is condemned... BUT if you as a gentile put yourself under the 10 then you might as well obey all 613 because they are the same. But then you are a slave to the LAW and not a slave to GRACE!
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In any case there is no condemnation in scripture of anyone who is a slave to the law. The condemnation is of those who are slaves to sin. Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" Obedience to what? What leads to righteousness? Ps 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness." If one wants to be involved in righteousness one should conform to His Commandments.
Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
Romans 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
The gentiles were never under the law therefore how can they violate it?
Romans 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Therefore if you want to be judged by the law (all 613) then be my guest.. however I choose to remain a gentile and follow the 2.
Sin will cause death but I will not be judged according to the law of sin but the law of grace.
Paul states in Romans 7:8-10 - But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Romans 6:14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.
Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
So from all that you can see that to put yourself under the Law of Moses if futile and that Law was to show sin not to save you from it for it is only the lawbreakers that need the law to condemn them.
1 Tim. 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
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Kotjonjj said:
Well, if the instruction of Messiah isn't good enough, I hope whatever you put your trust in works for you. The problem though is that if one calls himself a Christian one is supposed to follow Christ and conduct himself as He would. 1 John 3:3 "And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." When this doesn't happen we take the name of God in vain and misrepresent Him. So we get people like Mahatma Ghandi saying things like. “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
This goes for people who claim to keep the law as well as those who do not. Messiah was selfless. Greater love has no man than that. That is the kind of love expected of those who follow Him. (John 13:34)
LEWard
You say that you need the law and I say the law is a burden when you could experience the freedom of God's grace. That is your choice but remember that by what you judge others you will be judged. I would rather not be judged under the law as I am fully capable of discerning what is edifying and what is not. It is funny that you quote John 13:34 because in asking ETers if they would give up their place in heaven to save all those in hell... 99.9% of them say, "heck no! I love God too much" yet we see that if you don't love your brother but say you love God then you are a liar (1 John 4:20).
So which is it? Do you follow the law written in your heart as a gentile or are you a Jew and subject to the 10 (and thus the 613)?
So by not watching TV, dancing, listening to rock music and all the other modern Christian sins we are showing "appreciation" for Jesus dying on a cross for us? Do you really think that? You really think you will get a “thumbs up” because you made a decision to turn off your TV after X amount of hours? That is such a human way of thinking.
Jesus is the author of our good works (love), not our self imposed laws, rules, guidelines, and restrictions. We show our appreciation by allowing his love to work through us.
Okay now you are just getting all hippy love on us..
Seriously though... the bold part above is what is the real truth... it is the love we show to others that testifies to the glory of God.
When a person tells someone they are going to burn for all eternity if they don't acknowledge the particular sect of Christianity the person is sharing with them.. that is not showing God's love at all... IMO.
So by not watching TV, dancing, listening to rock music and all the other modern Christian sins we are showing "appreciation" for Jesus dying on a cross for us?
Did I say that? No I did not.
Do you really think that?
Irrelevant but no I dont
You really think you will get a “thumbs up” because you made a decision to turn off your TV after X amount of hours?
You have completly twist the meaning of what I have said.
That is such a human way of thinking.
Irrelevant.
Jesus is the author of our good works (love), not our self imposed laws, rules, guidelines, and restrictions. We show our appreciation by allowing his love to work through us.
Yes and you shall know them by their fruit. Nothing self imposed yet self control would be nice. Not rule yet guidelines are good. No restrictions merely respect. Would you that Jesus showed selfishness? He gave and confirmed rules and guidelines.
How can you know or do the two without the eight? If you know or do the two the eight will follow and vice versa.
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