Book of the law V.S. Ten commandments

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by LEWard

Katjonjj said:


Er, I’m a Christian, not a follower of Judaism. I consider what they have to say against the Hebrew Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings. In this case what they say has little merit. Messiah ought to be our teacher not some Rabbi (Mat 23:8).

Um the guy you are quoting in Matt..was a Jew.. In fact all the writers of the NT were Jews....Yet you don't want to take into consideration what they believe? Is Christianity based on Judaism or do you just toss out the whole OT?

Katjonjj said:

Speak for yourself J

I assumed you thought all people deserved hell... My bad.

We think we know what is best for us, which is why we’re happy to ignore the poor and enlarge our own bank account. I’m saying even “belief” in God doesn’t automatically teach us right from wrong. Saul believed in God before he was Paul, but he acknowledged that ‘ … I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet"’ (Rom 7:7). The Creator defines what is right and wrong for His creation. Since His ways are higher, we often are confused. Of course, without careful study of His Laws one wouldn’t know what he was missing. King David pondered it regularly, but never claimed a complete understanding.

Yet go back a little further in that chapter:
Verse 1: Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

The law here is the JEWISH law and he is speaking to Jews as a Jew...
Why the distinction between who know the law and who doesn't? Ye the law has authority only during a lifetime...how then can one be punished for them after death?

Then in 8-13: But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.



Do you understand the totality of what this passage is saying to those who KNOW THE LAW - The Jews?


The Law identified sin yet sin ran a muck because the intent was to fulfill the law. When the express intent of the law was to produce death so that sin can be seen as 'utterly sinful'...


Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Because ultimately, following the dead letter of the law causes sin to run rampant as you try to see how you can sneak this or that sin into it with excuses such as self-defense, etc. .. but if you love your neighbor you would not kill them and you are not refraining from murder in order to obey the law but because you love your neighbor.

It all goes to motive. Is your motive to fulfill the dead letter of the law or to love your neighbor as yourself?

If you understood the Law you would know that it allows for self defense. Typically though, the problem is godly conduct in the little things. The Law tells us not to steal. What happens if I borrow something and it breaks? Suppose I invent something while working for an employer. If I’m later let go can I profit from that invention without the knowledge of the employer? Some things like this the Law deals with directly. Sometimes one needs to translate from their culture to our own. The 10 give the overall categories. The 2 are even more general. The Judgments that came with the 10 add detail. The Law adds additional detail, but also implements changes, like an allowance for divorce that was not originally intended. One must consider it all very carefully.

If you understood the law you would know that it does not allow for self defense. A sin is a sin. Whether you are justified in the murder of a human being there is no need to think it any less a sin just because it is self-defense. Murder is murder... it is taking another life. Jesus tells us that if you are angry with your neighbor then you are guilty of murder... He is saying that it is what is in your heart.. your motives that matters.

God did not want sacrifice but delights in us loving one another. That is why the Law is not applicable when you are under grace.. for no man could fulfill the law.

Again, I look to the source, scripture not Judaism, for truth. As I quoted earlier, after Moses wrote the Law it was placed next to the covenant of the Lord, the 10, which was in the ark of the Covenant of the Lord. The covenant of the LAW was placed outside the ark. (Deu 31:24-26) It was not the covenant of the Lord since it was not put in the ark of the covenant of the Lord. The covenant of the Lord had been there for almost 40 years. That puts it before the Law, which is the same as saying it predates the Law.

UM.. the OT IS Judaism...
These are Judaism's roots... I don't see how you separate the two. If the Jews study these scriptures and it is their ancestry that is written about then shouldn't we take into consideration what they (as God's chosen people) understand? I don't know why Christians think they own the OT when it is not the Christian history but the Jewish history... right?

The Law was not confirmed until Deuteronomy was written. Deu 29:1 “These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb. …[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]12 "that you may enter into covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath, which the LORD your God makes with you today”

Again.. you are not going to consult the Jews on this... again. Yet it is that very people that is being spoken to in the verses you quote...

One covenant, besides another covenant is two covenants not one. To the Jews it makes no difference, since they don’t understand that Messiah, the prophet, has arrived, spoke and acted to establish a new priesthood. You’re free to believe Judaism if you will, but the source is available in reasonably good English. I think you’re better off to read it for yourself, assuming you read it carefully. If you really want to understand what the Law is and is not, you might check out CreatorsCovenant.org.

I am saying that in order for you to be required to follow the sabbath which is a JEWISH holy day... wouldn't you then be a convert to Judaism? Do you also take other religions holy days and require yourself to practice those? The Jews were the keepers of the law yet you don't see the necessity in consulting them?

Katjonjj said:

Actually the identification of the 7 as applying to Gentiles doesn’t appear in Jewish writings until after the Mishnah, circa 200 AD. So that understanding is a creation of Judaism long after Messiah recommended keeping the commandments. (Mat 19:17)

Ezekiel 20:21 "But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.

But they observed the sabbaths... so what is it about those sabbaths they profaned? Ezekiel 23:39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and behold, thus have they done in the midst of my house.

They profaned the sabbaths by correctly observing them but in their hearts they followed idols... So is it that observing the law is what gives life or is it the practice of the law from the heart that gives life? I believe it is not the practice of the law that gives life but why you do it. Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath by healing the sick... yet he seemed to think that the sabbath was just for that purpose... to help others.
Who was correct? Is following the law good enough? or is it better to follow the law because you have love for your neighbor? That is where there is freedom. Jesus was FREE to heal (do work) on the sabbath because he was loving his neighbor by healing them.

So when you follow the DEAD LETTER of the law it is not truly doing what God commanded unless it is because you love your neighbor.

According to :
"According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. "

Seems to me it stems from Noah not 200AD...

Katjonjj said:

Katjonjj, your scriptures do not support what you’re trying to say. “before the law was given, sin was in the world”. Didn’t I already quote Galatians 3:19, “the law was added”? Sin existed before “The Law”. It existed because of “His Laws”, which are His covenant, the 10. This is evident in the next verse, Romans 5:14 “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,…” Adam sinned before the Law, as did everyone else. Sin happened without The Law. It resulted in their death. The Creator established His Law from the beginning. Everyone is accountable to it. Ps 111:9 “He has sent redemption to His people; He has commanded His covenant forever: Holy and awesome is His name.”

Isa 56:6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants––Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant–– 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

The Creator wanted everyone to participate. Evidently only Abraham, and the patriarchs proved to be serious. Israel was the recipient of God’s grace bringing them out of Egypt and putting up with their rebellious nature. Largely this was due to Moses and Abraham’s obedience. Abraham didn’t keep the Law of Moses, but he kept the Law of God (Gen 26:5). He never tithed to Levi and never brought his offerings to the tabernacle/temple of God. These are required by the Law.

Are you part of Israel? You say that you don't want to think about Judaism but I believe that is a close to knowing what Israel (Moses and Abraham) did right and wrong as you are going to get!
I am saying that following the LAW just to follow it will get you nowhere... it is following the Law because it is right and good (whether the 2, 7, 10, or 613) because you love your fellow man.

Matt. 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

This is what Jesus said after being accused of breaking the Sabbath.. that they didn't understand why the sabbath was to be observed.. to heal the sick is a great reason to do work on the sabbath and shows the love for your fellow man.

Jesus said the same thing earlier in Matt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Again he is being challenged by the Pharisees in the Letter of the Law... they perceived that he was breaking the law or darn close by associating himself with sinners.. but Jesus refused to be swayed from giving compassion to the sinner because the motive was love for his fellow man.

If Jesus loved the sinner why don't we? If Jesus loved the sinner and is the image of God.. then doesn't GOD love the sinner? Yet he will punish them after this life for sins that don't even matter in the next... I find that illogical.

Katjonjj said:

“When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law.” This is a rather creative translation, but you picked it. So, if you sin you will be destroyed even though you think you never had Gods law. Now if you really follow the 2 you won’t sin, so why do you have such an issue with the Law that explains how to not sin?

You sin.. you die... When has death or destruction EVER meant and afterlife of hell? When you die you are dead... this states nothing that happens after your death in a realm called hell.

I have no problem with the law, and I rarely break the law... I have no trouble keeping it because I love God and others as myself. I wonder why some people need them to be outlined on paper in order to follow them... The law is for the lawbreaker... As I am not a lawbreaker, I have no use for the law. With loving others as my motive I will never have to worry about breaking any of God's laws... whatever definition of laws you want to use. It seems as if it is you who is focused on following the law to the letter...

Katjonjj said:
Who decides who will receive grace? Do you give it to yourself? Sinning puts you in jeopardy of insulting grace. Heb 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 ... 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" A believer sinning has “trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace”.

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Mercy+Love=Grace

and it is God who loves and God who gives mercy thus it is God who is the author of Grace.

The spirit of Grace is that we love one another and show compassion for one another... that is the law! Again you are quoting Jews talking of Jewish laws and practices and yet don't want to understand that God did not desire the LAW apart from LOVE for your neighbor!

1 Cor. 13 goes in to it in detail.. If you follow the law but don't love your neighbor then you accomplish nothing!

Katjonjj said:
Some of what you say is right. Sorting out what the scriptures say from what you want them to say would be tedious. At least you're using scripture as a basis for what you are trying to say.

As a son of the Father I diligently seek to walk in His ways. I look to a different priesthood than that specified in the Law. I’m not under the Law, but I willingly submit myself to the Law of God, the 10. Those are two related but distinct laws. Romans 7:22 “For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”

Romans 8:7 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Those who do not subject themselves to the Law of God cannot please Him. Those who are after the spirit subject themselves to the Law of God. They can please the Father just as Messiah did. What father would not be pleased with a son that does things the way the father instructs? They don’t try the patience and grace of God by ignoring His instruction.

Katjonjj said:

That was how Eve looked at things too. The world has been going downhill ever since.


Katjonjj said:


Of course I follow His Laws which I have written in my heart. My Creator bent over backwards to show me how much He cares even while I was disrespecting Him. Now that I know what His Laws are I would truly be a fool to ask Him for forgiveness while at the same time ignoring His instruction. Grace is extended to those who humbly seek His way, not those that can take care of themselves.
LEWard

Your last sentence is one I don't think you fully understand... If Grace is extended to those who humbly seek his way then those are people that CAN take care of themselves... it is the sick that need a doctor, the unsaved that need to be saved....

Once you are saved from sin there is no reason to go back to sinning UNLESS you don't love your neighbor as yourself... and in 1 John 4 we see that if you say you love God but don't love your neighbor then you lie and you don't love God either.

The whole point of the Law is to prevent people from hurting each other---
Thus the two are sufficient for anyone who truly loves... Love God and your neighbor as yourself...

1 Cor. 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I am saying: Stop wasting your time trying to follow the law to the letter (which also leads to death) but rather love God and your neighbor as yourself which leads to life.

[ALMOST2L8]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

Um the guy you are quoting in Matt..was a Jew.. In fact all the writers of the NT were Jews....Yet you don't want to take into consideration what they believe? Is Christianity based on Judaism or do you just toss out the whole OT?

I assumed you thought all people deserved hell... My bad.





Yet go back a little further in that chapter:
Verse 1: Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

The law here is the JEWISH law and he is speaking to Jews as a Jew...
Why the distinction between who know the law and who doesn't? Ye the law has authority only during a lifetime...how then can one be punished for them after death?

Then in 8-13: But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.



Do you understand the totality of what this passage is saying to those who KNOW THE LAW - The Jews?


The Law identified sin yet sin ran a muck because the intent was to fulfill the law. When the express intent of the law was to produce death so that sin can be seen as 'utterly sinful'...


Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Because ultimately, following the dead letter of the law causes sin to run rampant as you try to see how you can sneak this or that sin into it with excuses such as self-defense, etc. .. but if you love your neighbor you would not kill them and you are not refraining from murder in order to obey the law but because you love your neighbor.

It all goes to motive. Is your motive to fulfill the dead letter of the law or to love your neighbor as yourself?

If you understood the law you would know that it does not allow for self defense. A sin is a sin. Whether you are justified in the murder of a human being there is no need to think it any less a sin just because it is self-defense. Murder is murder... it is taking another life. Jesus tells us that if you are angry with your neighbor then you are guilty of murder... He is saying that it is what is in your heart.. your motives that matters.

God did not want sacrifice but delights in us loving one another. That is why the Law is not applicable when you are under grace.. for no man could fulfill the law.

UM.. the OT IS Judaism...
These are Judaism's roots... I don't see how you separate the two. If the Jews study these scriptures and it is their ancestry that is written about then shouldn't we take into consideration what they (as God's chosen people) understand? I don't know why Christians think they own the OT when it is not the Christian history but the Jewish history... right?

Again.. you are not going to consult the Jews on this... again. Yet it is that very people that is being spoken to in the verses you quote...

I am saying that in order for you to be required to follow the sabbath which is a JEWISH holy day... wouldn't you then be a convert to Judaism? Do you also take other religions holy days and require yourself to practice those? The Jews were the keepers of the law yet you don't see the necessity in consulting them?

Ezekiel 20:21 "But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.

But they observed the sabbaths... so what is it about those sabbaths they profaned? Ezekiel 23:39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and behold, thus have they done in the midst of my house.

They profaned the sabbaths by correctly observing them but in their hearts they followed idols... So is it that observing the law is what gives life or is it the practice of the law from the heart that gives life? I believe it is not the practice of the law that gives life but why you do it. Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath by healing the sick... yet he seemed to think that the sabbath was just for that purpose... to help others.
Who was correct? Is following the law good enough? or is it better to follow the law because you have love for your neighbor? That is where there is freedom. Jesus was FREE to heal (do work) on the sabbath because he was loving his neighbor by healing them.

So when you follow the DEAD LETTER of the law it is not truly doing what God commanded unless it is because you love your neighbor.

According to :
"According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. "

Seems to me it stems from Noah not 200AD...

Are you part of Israel? You say that you don't want to think about Judaism but I believe that is a close to knowing what Israel (Moses and Abraham) did right and wrong as you are going to get!
I am saying that following the LAW just to follow it will get you nowhere... it is following the Law because it is right and good (whether the 2, 7, 10, or 613) because you love your fellow man.

Matt. 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

This is what Jesus said after being accused of breaking the Sabbath.. that they didn't understand why the sabbath was to be observed.. to heal the sick is a great reason to do work on the sabbath and shows the love for your fellow man.

Jesus said the same thing earlier in Matt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Again he is being challenged by the Pharisees in the Letter of the Law... they perceived that he was breaking the law or darn close by associating himself with sinners.. but Jesus refused to be swayed from giving compassion to the sinner because the motive was love for his fellow man.

If Jesus loved the sinner why don't we? If Jesus loved the sinner and is the image of God.. then doesn't GOD love the sinner? Yet he will punish them after this life for sins that don't even matter in the next... I find that illogical.


You sin.. you die... When has death or destruction EVER meant and afterlife of hell? When you die you are dead... this states nothing that happens after your death in a realm called hell.

I have no problem with the law, and I rarely break the law... I have no trouble keeping it because I love God and others as myself. I wonder why some people need them to be outlined on paper in order to follow them... The law is for the lawbreaker... As I am not a lawbreaker, I have no use for the law. With loving others as my motive I will never have to worry about breaking any of God's laws... whatever definition of laws you want to use. It seems as if it is you who is focused on following the law to the letter...



Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Mercy+Love=Grace

and it is God who loves and God who gives mercy thus it is God who is the author of Grace.

The spirit of Grace is that we love one another and show compassion for one another... that is the law! Again you are quoting Jews talking of Jewish laws and practices and yet don't want to understand that God did not desire the LAW apart from LOVE for your neighbor!

1 Cor. 13 goes in to it in detail.. If you follow the law but don't love your neighbor then you accomplish nothing!



Your last sentence is one I don't think you fully understand... If Grace is extended to those who humbly seek his way then those are people that CAN take care of themselves... it is the sick that need a doctor, the unsaved that need to be saved....

Once you are saved from sin there is no reason to go back to sinning UNLESS you don't love your neighbor as yourself... and in 1 John 4 we see that if you say you love God but don't love your neighbor then you lie and you don't love God either.

The whole point of the Law is to prevent people from hurting each other---
Thus the two are sufficient for anyone who truly loves... Love God and your neighbor as yourself...

1 Cor. 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I am saying: Stop wasting your time trying to follow the law to the letter (which also leads to death) but rather love God and your neighbor as yourself which leads to life.

All you commandment bashers are like broken records!! The statements you are claiming make absolutely no sense!! The OT is not strictly for Judiasm. It is called hypocrisy, when you make this idiotic statement, and then you quote scripture from that stupid old Jewish book. Please, you really should practice what you preach!! You cannot say that the book is only for Jews, and then use it because: Oh, it proves what I believe!!! I hope you are more careful in the future. Because I will definately let you know when you try and use something that was not meant for us. And I know you will. Because It is all the same crap that you universalists spit. Nothing applies, unless it applies to US!!!!! Isn't that how it goes??? The OT scripteres are from God to his children!!! His creation!!! You use Adam as an excuse to be ok with a sinning lifestyle!! Do I call you a sinner?? No, because I am not the one who knows what is written on your heart. That would be God!! OT GOD or NT GOD??? I'm not sure, because I didn't know they were different!! Me and my barbaric ways!! You can save your false teaching for the next idiot!! I'm not buying it. The sabbath was something made upon creation, it is a part of our exsistance it was created with us. NOT A LAW!!!! God spake the sabbath and it was so. It was not written. So no LETTER OF THE LAW!!! That is the most lame line I've ever heard to excuse disobedience. I can believe what you guys preach about love!! I think it is awsome, it taught me something!!! But when you speak of love, and reduce our commandments to two. You use that as an excuse to ignore God's holy day. It gets singled out. I don't understand how a word so great as LOVE can be used for such unloving thoughts. If I could not work, still survive in the world without money then everyday would be my sabbath because I would use every waking moment of every day to worship, and do only what pleases him!! Why?? Because I love him that much. I love him enough to strive to keep his sabbath everyday. Some, obviously are so wrapped up in themselves that they don't want to keep the sabbath. Why push so hard??? Why does it bother some so much to keep God holy enough to keep his holy day holy?? I do not understand. Maybe you, or someone else can explain what is the big deal about keeping the sabbath. Universalists preach that they can keep all commandments through love. Well, except one. Then that is not ALL. I know that you know what ALL means you guys use it with caps from the book of timothy constantly!! I believe the same as you guys only I love God enough to give him whatever day he asks for?? Even after Jesus death, the apostles kept the sabbath!! Why??? These men lived with Jesus, ate, slept, loved, and learned from Jesus. And if Jesus ever taught that the sabbath was "unsacred" or "not holy", wouldn't the closest people to him have practiced it. I so want to say that some just don't love God!!! But that is not the way to someones heart!! And only God knows what is on the heart!! I truly don't know who does or does not love God. But I do find some people way too defensive about having to keep it. Sorry, if you do not feel God is good enough to give one day of your life. That is what it boils down to!!! No matter what logical or unlogical reasons you or anyone else uses to ignore the sabbath. Heck, maybe you do think he is good enough and just don't have the time. I love him so much that I am willing to make the time. HOW MUCH DO YOU LOVE GOD????

Stupid question. You will dance around it anyway with some rational philosophy on love or answer "I love God so much I give him everyday" You cannot do something selfish on the sabbath and then declare it a holy day, let alone everyday. No one can keep the sabbath everyday, because we have to work. That is called the LAW OF LIVING. Unless you want to sleep in the park!! Which I gotta tell ya, if God's purpose was for me to be there, I would be there with a smile!!! Funny, that most people follow the current laws given by MAN, but give God his own day and your a legalist!!! GEEEESH!!

Dare I bring up the LAW OF GRAVITY!!!

Just more legalism!!!

[LEWard]

LEWard said:
“Er, I’m a Christian, not a follower of Judaism. I consider what they have to say against the Hebrew Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings. In this case what they say has little merit. Messiah ought to be our teacher not some Rabbi (Mat 23:8).”

Katjonjj said:
“Um the guy you are quoting in Matt..was a Jew.. In fact all the writers of the NT were Jews....Yet you don't want to take into consideration what they believe? Is Christianity based on Judaism or do you just toss out the whole OT?”

Do you not understand the difference between being a Jew and adhering to Judaism? One is a nationality/family the other is a religion. Jewish Christians were killed by the ancestors of the creators of Judaism. Can you allow that I might make a distinction between the two, or do you just like to argue? What part of love is that?

By the way, Katjonjj, you labeled a number of your quotes with the wrong author. If you’re going to quote would you please attribute it to the right person?

Katjonjj said:

“The Law identified sin yet sin ran a muck because the intent was to fulfill the law. When the express intent of the law was to produce death so that sin can be seen as 'utterly sinful'...


Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Because ultimately, following the dead letter of the law causes sin to run rampant as you try to see how you can sneak this or that sin into it with excuses such as self-defense, etc. .. but if you love your neighbor you would not kill them and you are not refraining from murder in order to obey the law but because you love your neighbor.

It all goes to motive. Is your motive to fulfill the dead letter of the law or to love your neighbor as yourself?”

Because God’s ways are better than mine I ponder His standard in His Law to make sure I am doing things His way. I also consult the Law for instruction. Jer 10:23 “O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.”

I don’t recommend anyone focus their life on the letter of the Law. I do recommend studying the Law carefully, but this is so one can understand the principles, not just the letter. Rom 7:14 “For we know that the law is spiritual…” It was hoped Israel would treat it that way, as you pointed out. Unfortunately they didn’t. It was like they had a bag over their head when they read it. 2Cor 3:14 “But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.”

And these are the people you want me to be impressed with?

The bag is removed when one considers the selfless example of Messiah. Then one can understand the spirit of the Law. Of course this will not happen if one doesn’t read it and think about it.

Katjonjj said

“If you understood the lawyou would know that it does not allow for self defense. A sin is a sin. Whether you are justified in the murder of a human being there is no need to think it any less a sin just because it is self-defense.”

Ex 22:2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed”. In the latter case there would be an inquiry and judges would decide the guilt if any. The spirit of this matter is that a person has the right to defend his property and his person. Self-defense is not murder.

Why should I think you know what you are talking about?

Katjonjj said:

“God did not want sacrifice but delights in us loving one another. That is why the Law is not applicable when you are under grace.. for no man could fulfill the law.”

Deu 30:11 ¶ "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.” Moses thought Israel could do it.

Ex 20:20 “And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin." This is referring to His Law rather than The Law. However, the Creator thought even the first generation out of Egypt could do that.

Yes, God delights in us loving one another. Why does that mean the Law can’t be fulfilled?

Katjonjj said:

I am saying that in order for you to be required to follow the sabbath which is a JEWISH holy day... wouldn't you then be a convert to Judaism? Do you also take other religions holy days and require yourself to practice those? The Jews were the keepers of thelaw yet you don't see the necessity in consulting them?

Lev 23:1 “And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.”

This is another reason I go to the source rather than Judaism. The Creator claims the Sabbaths of Leviticus 23 as His. The Sabbath is not the possession of the Jews. If one reads the Law carefully one understands the mind of God and His ways better.

Leward said:

Actually the identification of the 7 as applying to Gentiles doesn’t appear in Jewish writings until after the Mishnah, circa 200 AD. So that understanding is a creation of Judaism long after Messiah recommended keeping the commandments. (Mat 19:17)

Katjonjj said:
According to :
"According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. "

Seems to me it stems from Noah not 200AD...

Noah received certain instruction from God. It was not until after 200 AD that the creators of what became modern Judaism started saying this instruction had a special meaning for the “non-Jew”. You had to find that in Judaism. You won’t find it in Genesis.

Katjonjj said:

Ezekiel 20:21 "But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.

But they observed the sabbaths... so what is it about those sabbaths they profaned? Ezekiel 23:39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and behold, thus have they done in the midst of my house.

They profaned the sabbaths by correctly observing them but in their hearts they followed idols... So is it that observing the law is what gives life or is it the practice of the law from the heart that gives life? I believe it is not the practice of the law that gives life but why you do it. Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath by healing the sick... yet he seemed to think that the sabbath was just for that purpose... to help others.

Who was correct? Is following the law good enough? or is it better to follow the law because you have love for your neighbor? That is where there is freedom. Jesus was FREE to heal (do work) on the sabbath because he was loving his neighbor by healing them.

So when you follow the DEAD LETTER of the law it is not truly doing what God commanded unless it is because you love your neighbor.

It is certainly true that following only the letter of the Law is insufficient. The Law is spiritual as Paul said. One must read it for the principle in order to apply it to things the letter does not specifically address. However, in the case you cite, the problem was that they didn’t even do the letter. If one keeps some particular aspect of the Law, but ignores others they shouldn’t expect the blessings God promised if the Law were kept.

Katjonjj said:

Are you part of Israel? You say that you don't want to think about Judaism but I believe that is a close to knowing what Israel (Moses and Abraham) did right and wrong as you are going to get!

I am saying that following the LAW just to follow it will get you nowhere... it is following the Law because it is right and good (whether the 2, 7, 10, or 613) because you love your fellow man.

Romans 2:13 “(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;” Paul doesn’t word it the way you do. I appreciate what you are saying, but from your other posts you have no use for the Law at all. You inherently know what is right.

Katjonjj said:

“People know what is right and good and what is not, no matter what religion or non-religion they are a member of.”

In fact this is the whole problem with mankind, from Eve on down. We think we know. Unfortunately, one doesn't know what one doesn't know he doesn't know. At least some Christians listen to their leaders. Eze 33:31 "So they come to you as people do, they sit before you as My people, and they hear your words, but they do not do them; for with their mouth they show much love, but their hearts pursue their own gain.”

Our Creator tells us in His Law and in The Law how to love. The purpose of “All the Law and the Prophets” (Mat 22:40) are to instruct in how to accomplish love of God and love of neighbor. Yet you think you know by intuition the higher ways of God. He says you don’t, (Isa 55:8, Jer 10:23) which is why He gave mankind the Hebrew Scriptures. So your words ring hollow. They sound like those being referred to in Eze 33:31 above.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

Jer 10:23 “O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.”

2Tim 3:15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Paul thought Timothy could be profited in his ministry and life by examining the Hebrew Scriptures. They give wisdom for salvation and instruction in righteousness so a man of God may be complete.

With your constant harping against the letter of the Law you’re beating a dead horse. I’ve been advocating learning the ways of God, His commandments, His covenant. That's defined in the Law. If you don’t want to know the mind of God that’s your choice.
Leward

[hljc]

There are some mosac laws that the Lord can still bless today or bring understanding behind the veil that the purpose behind the rules the Lord God give for our benefit, mostly in the keeping clean rules, where today through the Prayers of the Blood of Jesus over ride this rules, but prayer in the blood is needed. or people can obey this rules or run to a Doctor for help....The Ten Commandments are still an important rules for us today, see in Revelation 17;3.... the is a seven heads and ten horned beast. this fallen angel is said to have the names of blasphemy which are to represent the seven worst sin for it authority against the Lord God....and the ten horns represents blasphemy against the Ten Commandments of the Lord God... In Revelations 12;3.. seven crowns on its seven heads represents it victory....... In Revelations 13;1.... ten crowns on its ten horns represents victory....This seven Headed ten horn beast is the authority of liberalism which is free of God and his ways....... So as a result the Ten Commandment are still important to obey for the Love of God in the Earth to be victorous, but if we reject or pass on Ten Commandments Believers must take up the Blood of Jesus Christ and Rebuke this beast in Jesus name in our prayers or fall in its authority for believers who do not pray or talk with the Lord Jesus Christ........The Authority of the Believer is very important part of being a Christian, read Ephesians : 6 and act on it with HIS Holy Spirit ......

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by RobinD69

My father is dead and my mother is insane so I truly have no parents to obey. I love my mother and my father still even now, you questions are irrelevant.

They are not irrelevant . . . they are trying to point out the difference between childhood and adulthood . . . and it applies equally to the childhood of humankind. Obedience was a tool to teach . . . we no longer need a schoolmaster.

As I have shared with you all it is not a matter of obedience to rules it is a matter of respect towards God to do as He commands. You are mistakenly confusing obedience with a lack of independence, you do know that you have no control but that which God grants you and if you were truly independant then stop breathing His air, eating His food, spending His money, for there is no such thing a true independence as we are all subject to God. Express true love for He who deserves your respect.

Love has nothing to do with obedience . . . only love.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by LEWard

Do you not understand the difference between being a Jew and adhering to Judaism? One is a nationality/family the other is a religion. Jewish Christians were killed by the ancestors of the creators of Judaism. Can you allow that I might make a distinction between the two, or do you just like to argue? What part of love is that?

By the way, Katjonjj, you labeled a number of your quotes with the wrong author. If you’re going to quote would you please attribute it to the right person?

Katjonjj said:Because God’s ways are better than mine I ponder His standard in His Law to make sure I am doing things His way. I also consult the Law for instruction. Jer 10:23 “O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.”

I don’t recommend anyone focus their life on the letter of the Law. I do recommend studying the Law carefully, but this is so one can understand the principles, not just the letter. Rom 7:14 “For we know that the law is spiritual…” It was hoped Israel would treat it that way, as you pointed out. Unfortunately they didn’t. It was like they had a bag over their head when they read it. 2Cor 3:14 “But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.”

And these are the people you want me to be impressed with?

The bag is removed when one considers the selfless example of Messiah. Then one can understand the spirit of the Law. Of course this will not happen if one doesn’t read it and think about it.

Katjonjj saidEx 22:2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed”. In the latter case there would be an inquiry and judges would decide the guilt if any. The spirit of this matter is that a person has the right to defend his property and his person. Self-defense is not murder.

Why should I think you know what you are talking about?

Katjonjj said:Deu 30:11 ¶ "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.” Moses thought Israel could do it.

Ex 20:20 “And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin." This is referring to His Law rather than The Law. However, the Creator thought even the first generation out of Egypt could do that.

Yes, God delights in us loving one another. Why does that mean the Law can’t be fulfilled?

Katjonjj said:Lev 23:1 “And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.”

This is another reason I go to the source rather than Judaism. The Creator claims the Sabbaths of Leviticus 23 as His. The Sabbath is not the possession of the Jews. If one reads the Law carefully one understands the mind of God and His ways better.


Noah received certain instruction from God. It was not until after 200 AD that the creators of what became modern Judaism started saying this instruction had a special meaning for the “non-Jew”. You had to find that in Judaism. You won’t find it in Genesis.

Katjonjj said:
[color=black][font=Verdana][color=#0062bf]It is certainly true that following only the letter of the Law is insufficient. The Law is spiritual as Paul said. One must read it for the principle in order to apply it to things the letter does not specifically address. However, in the case you cite, the problem was that they didn’t even do the letter. If one keeps some particular aspect of the Law, but ignores others they shouldn’t expect the blessings God promised if the Law were kept.

Katjonjj said:
Romans 2:13 “(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;” Paul doesn’t word it the way you do. I appreciate what you are saying, but from your other posts you have no use for the Law at all. You inherently know what is right.

Katjonjj said:[color=black][font=Verdana]In fact this is the whole problem with mankind, from Eve on down. We think we know. Unfortunately, one doesn't know what one doesn't know he doesn't know. At least some Christians listen to their leaders. Eze 33:31 "So they come to you as people do, they sit before you as My people, and they hear your words, but they do not do them; for with their mouth they show much love, but their hearts pursue their own gain.”

Our Creator tells us in His Law and in The Law how to love. The purpose of “All the Law and the Prophets” (Mat 22:40) are to instruct in how to accomplish love of God and love of neighbor. Yet you think you know by intuition the higher ways of God. He says you don’t, (Isa 55:8, Jer 10:23) which is why He gave mankind the Hebrew Scriptures. So your words ring hollow. They sound like those being referred to in Eze 33:31 above.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

Jer 10:23 “O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.”

2Tim 3:15 “and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Paul thought Timothy could be profited in his ministry and life by examining the Hebrew Scriptures. They give wisdom for salvation and instruction in righteousness so a man of God may be complete.

With your constant harping against the letter of the Law you’re beating a dead horse. I’ve been advocating learning the ways of God, His commandments, His covenant. That's defined in the Law. If you don’t want to know the mind of God that’s your choice.
Leward

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.... It seems you didn't here what I was saying... perhaps to many words are a bad thing.

Here it is in short form: If you are a lawbreaker, you need the law. If you are a non-lawbreaker, you have no need for the law.

If you love your neighbor (and God) as yourself then you will not break the law. The purpose of the law is for you to love your neighbor.

Without love you have nothing.

[LEWard]

Katjonjj said:

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.... It seems you didn't here what I was saying... perhaps to many words are a bad thing.

Here it is in short form: If you are a lawbreaker, you need the law. If you are a non-lawbreaker, you have no need for the law.

If you love your neighbor (and God) as yourself then you will not break the law. The purpose of the law is for you to love your neighbor.

Without love you have nothing.

Consider if you would that I asked you to attribute your quotes to the correct person. This helps us all understand what is being said. Instead of doing that, this last post you did the worst job ever of quoting. What part of love is that? "for with their mouth they show much love, but their hearts pursue their own gain." (Eze 33:31ef) It appears you know how to spell love, but how to love has escaped you.

LEWard

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by LEWard

Katjonjj said:


Consider if you would that I asked you to attribute your quotes to the correct person. This helps us all understand what is being said. Instead of doing that, this last post you did the worst job ever of quoting. What part of love is that? "for with their mouth they show much love, but their hearts pursue their own gain." (Eze 33:31ef) It appears you know how to spell love, but how to love has escaped you.

LEWard

I have no idea what you are talking about.... I just looked through the thread and I quoted you correctly. I split up your posts so I can reply to each point you make.. or that is my intention anyway. However... it is redundant to put "LEWard said: " before every quote... If so I would just copy and paste the first quote tags that show your name and link to the original post... so again I have no idea what you are talking about regarding misquoting.... If I quote you at the beginning and don't indicate I am quoting another poster then all the quotes are from you...

If you could point out specific misquotes that might be helpful.

As far as Eze. 33:31... what exactly do I have to gain from what I am saying?? In my view, if I am right or wrong it makes no difference because the truth is still the truth.

1 John 3:18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

Disparaging remarks such as

Originally Posted by LEWard

It appears you know how to spell love, but how to love has escaped you.

are called personal attacks.. and are exactly what Eze. 33:31 is talking about.. having the purpose of hurting others disguised as love... when really it is just for some imagined personal gain.

Eze. 33:30-33“As for you, son of man, your countrymen are talking together about you by the walls and at the doors of the houses, saying to each other, ‘Come and hear the message that has come from the Lord.’ My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words, but they do not put them into practice. With their mouths they express devotion, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain. Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.
“When all this comes true—and it surely will—then they will know that a prophet has been among them.”


The whole chapter is about how a prophet has the job to warn the people. If the prophet warns the people and they don't listen then their own death is on their own head... if the prophet does not warn the people then their death is on the prophet's head. This is a warning about the destruction of Jerusalem which happened just as Ezekiel stated... They didn't heed the warning though they did hear the message...


I have told you before. The law is for lawbreakers... those that tell others they must follow this law or that are usually the worst lawbreakers of the bunch. Loving others as yourself cannot steer you wrong because you don't have YOUR best interests in mind.. you have the best interests of others in mind.

Good luck to you on your journey here at C-D.