Universalists: Please Explain Why You Believe Like You Do (Alabama, amazing, Gospel)

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

The soul is not an entity but is the seat of sensations.

Agreed, and very powerful betrayal at that.

Originally Posted by katjonjj

The question is, then, what is the part of us that is not the body, called consciousness? and where does that consciousness go when we are unconscious?

That (consciousness) would also be the soul, imo - because (imo) the soul includes our mind and emotions; basically everything about us that is known experientially is tied to the soul of man. That's why we're rotten to the core...

...the carnal mind, the lusts of the flesh, emotional ups and downs - all these are contrary to the nature of Christ, and none of them were present before Adam fell; but as the Lord proclaimed, "The soul that sins, dies." At that moment, the soul took (from the spirit) the throne of our being. It must not be lord of our life any longer; the spirit must rule.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

This is how I understand it taught in the bible too.

The question is, then, what is the part of us that is not the body, called consciousness? and where does that consciousness go when we are unconscious?

I believe there is no consciousness at all in death. The bible says "the dead know nothing."

But I believe when we die that God stores every experience we experienced in His spirit. We we are resurrected He raises us by His spirit and we are given back all the knowledge we had prior to death.

Just my thoughts.

How else could Lazarus after he died and stunk 4 days could get back all his memories? All his brain cells were dead. All that information had to be stored somewhere.

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by ScarletWren

This is a confusing subject and once we feel we go to be with the Lord immediately upon death, we certainly don't want to think that might be delayed. And perhaps it is not, who alive today can know for sure?

Like Katzpur, I believe the soul is what results from the spirit entering the body.....THEN man became a living soul. However, I don not believe we are a dichotomy in that we have a soul AND a spirit, both controlled by us. The spirit comes from God and returns to God, it has always been said this in the Old Testament and yet the scriptures said that we slept in the grave, with no knowledge of anything. The spirit is part of God, which can lead us to truth if we heed it, etc. But it is not under OUR control, we only have control of our soul which is what controls our body, thinks, reasons, etc.

Why did Paul refer to believers being ASLEEP in Christ? This does NOT denote consciousness to me. When He says we have eternal life, to me that says that believers will enjoy the Tabernacles age...be resurrected BEFORE those who did not believe. It is that pesky aion word again. I have read a great article explaining the verses that seemingly say we go to be with Christ immediately upon death and I thought they were well done. I have had to purge my computer, unfortunatley, and iI am not sure I can find that article again. It explained very convincingly the verse where Paul seems to say he could live or go to be with Christ.....again it seems to be a bit of a translation problem and it was something like he was 'straitened betwixt two choices' and the way it went it didn't prove that he thought he would immediately be with Christ upon his death. I will see if I can find the article in the next few days.

Though God is a spirit, I'm not sure if we were meant to be bodiless spirits. I believe we will enjoy BOTH realms and certainly our bodies will be able to enjoy both realms but I don't think this physical universe was ever meant to be just a temporary thing. Just my two cents worth.

Yes, it is a confusing subject! We can derive two distinct messages from scripture on the matter but since there can be no discrepancies or contradictions, I'm just not sure what to think about it scripturally. All I can go with, since it seems there is no clear cut answer, is what I said above. It's not something that we HAVE to know, and I think it's ok if we all come to our on conclusions about it.

I believe we will enjoy both realms also and that we will have bodies similar to what we have now, just perfect. And no, the physical, like you said and I believe also, was created as a permanent thing, not temporary.

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Yes, it is a confusing subject! We can derive two distinct messages from scripture on the matter but since there can be no discrepancies or contradictions, I'm just not sure what to think about it scripturally. All I can go with, since it seems there is no clear cut answer, is what I said above. It's not something that we HAVE to know, and I think it's ok if we all come to our on conclusions about it.

I believe we will enjoy both realms also and that we will have bodies similar to what we have now, just perfect. And no, the physical, like you said and I believe also, was created as a permanent thing, not temporary.

I totally agree with all you've said, well said!

[ans57]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Yes, it is a confusing subject! We can derive two distinct messages from scripture on the matter but since there can be no discrepancies or contradictions, I'm just not sure what to think about it scripturally. All I can go with, since it seems there is no clear cut answer, is what I said above. It's not something that we HAVE to know, and I think it's ok if we all come to our on conclusions about it.

I believe we will enjoy both realms also and that we will have bodies similar to what we have now, just perfect. And no, the physical, like you said and I believe also, was created as a permanent thing, not temporary.

[Ilene Wright]

Now on to another subject. I've been thinking a lot about reconciliation and I can't seem to put the scriptures together that suggest that all will be reconciled. If anyone has done a study on this and has a list of scriptures that you have compiled I would be most appreciative if you could share it. I'm not getting very far in my studies for various reasons and I was hoping I could get a little jump start with scriptures and how they all connect. Thanks! I'm a little impatient......I know this will take a while and I don't expect an overnight conversion but any help you can give into getting organized would be great.

[katjonjj]

God is the Father of all men
Mal. 2:10 "Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?..."

God owns all Men
Eze. 18:4 "For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me..."

Psalm 24:1; 89:11 "The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it..." "The heavens are Yours, the earth also is Yours; The world and all it contains, You have founded them."

1 Cor. 10:26 "FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS."

All men given to Christ
John 3:35; 6:37; 17:2 "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands." "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." "For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

The Will of God
1 Tim 2:1;4 "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--" "[God] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Matt. 6:10 "your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
Heb. 10:9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will."
Dan 4:35 "All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases."

The Nature of God
1 John 4:8 "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
Rom. 13:10 "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son..."
Luke 6:35 "...[God] is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

The Wisdom and Pleasure of God
James 3:17 "But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere."
Eze. 33:11 "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked..."
Rev. 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."
Isaiah 46:10; 55:11 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

And more here: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html

That should keep you busy...

[legoman]

Here are a few more to get you started:

Acts 3:21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

2 Cor 5:17 [KJV] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 1:9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

And there are many more such verses...
150 Reasons For Believing In The Final Salvation Of All Mankind

[Ilene Wright]

Wow, thanks Kat and Legoman.......this should really give me a good start. I printed them so I can have a reference to work with. And thanks for the link Legoman, I'll be checking that out too!

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Wow, thanks Kat and Legoman.......this should really give me a good start. I printed them so I can have a reference to work with. And thanks for the link Legoman, I'll be checking that out too!

Wow....Is this the same Ilene Wright???? This is like Saul becoming Paul....an amazing transformation of spiritual life...hearing and BELIEVING the Good News of the Gospel.... Can I call ya Sister Wright from now on?