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LOL...the minute I think I understand something I have 10 more questions!! Can you tell me where you got that in the mind of God there is fire? I understand refinement but I'm not able to put together God's mind as being fire. I always separate the two......the fire is not in God's mind but in hell. So do you see God as literally burning people to refine them to be able to be pure enough for heaven?
Kat meant in the mind of the universalist ------ God is a consuming fire, NOT Gods mind
LOL...the minute I think I understand something I have 10 more questions!! Can you tell me where you got that in the mind of God there is fire? I understand refinement but I'm not able to put together God's mind as being fire. I always separate the two......the fire is not in God's mind but in hell. So do you see God as literally burning people to refine them to be able to be pure enough for heaven?
Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?"
Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Hebrews 12:28-29 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire."
I believe God refines each in his own way. I don't take much literally when it comes to the unseen such as an afterlife so I can't relate to what you are asking entirely. However, take a look at the way fire is used of God and perhaps that will help.
Isaiah 66:15-16 See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD.
In Revelation the fire of heaven (or God) consumes the wicked... but then in Malachi 3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
So I don't think we are talking literal fire here.. but spiritual fire. Much like the Pentecostals say they are "on fire" for the Lord.
I'm still studying, but one of the things that brought me to even contemplate Univsersalism was the word "hell." I was so frustrated after having learned how badly that word was translated and used in the Bible that it led me to want to learn more. The more I learned, the more interesting things got.
I'm working on the "forevers," "eternals", etc. right now. This is from the Tentmaker site.
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
I was also very frustrated at the Calvinism (elect) vs Arminianism (free will) conundrum. They both make sense at one level, but then they don't. At one time Arminians were considered heretics. It is very confusing. And you have to read all these books that men write to try and understand their thinking and then you are even more confused than ever. Honestly. That is why neither of these groups can answer any questioning that goes against their doctrine. If you find a verse that contradicts them, they just say they can't explain God's mind or he works in mysterious ways. Tthey also love to talk about proper exegesis and hermeneutics, which isn't a bad thing, but it still doesn't answer many, many questions and leaves the church divided. So, somebody is wrong, obviously. Even with their PROPER exegesis and hermeneutics we still have ELECT vs FREE WILL mysteries. One group or another is still going against scripture at some level. They can't tie it together. They will always have to leave scripture out or twist words to make their doctrine work.
The confusion reminds me of that verse about "heaping teachers to themselves."
God is not the author of confusion.
(This is an interesting site on Biblical vs Unbiblical Universalism) 27. Biblical versus Unbiblical Universalism (http://www.godsplanforall.com/biblicalversusunbiblicaluniversalism - broken link)
So I don't think we are talking literal fire here.. but spiritual fire. Much like the Pentecostals say they are "on fire" for the Lord.
Precisely - Pentecost is fire that has come down from heaven, but as we go deeper the fire is within us - that would be Tabernacles.
Many have explained that fire doesn't actually destroy, but only changes the matter in which it burns (debatable ), but I believe that His fire will indeed devour all flesh.
I believe we humans consist of body, soul, and spirit - and that the only part of us to exist in Him is our spirit (we worship Him in spirit). Because the fall of Adam entangled the soul (our mind, will, and emotion) with our spirit, and put the soul on the throne of our lives, the fire will burn the soul "back into submission" to the spirit.
Because fire can be a good thing. Without fire metals would not be made pure.... precious metals are put in the fire so they are made pure. In the mind of the universalist God is that very fire that burns away all the bad while retaining the precious metal underneath. This is what some call the process of salvation. Universalists, however, don't see the fire of "hell" or the wrath of God the same way because they see that it is for the good of the person being tried not just to torture them for wrongdoings.
Did that help or create a greater sense of confusion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
Kat meant in the mind of the universalist ------ God is a consuming fire, NOT Gods mind
My bad......I went back and read it again and I thought she was saying the "universalist God"......not "in the mind of the universalist" (comma) God......anyway I see what you're saying now.
My bad......I went back and read it again and I thought she was saying the "universalist God"......not "in the mind of the universalist" (comma) God......anyway I see what you're saying now.
the missing comma makes all the difference -- there is only ONE God -- it is the humans that have different perceptions of Him.
I'm still studying, but one of the things that brought me to even contemplate Univsersalism was the word "hell." I was so frustrated after having learned how badly that word was translated and used in the Bible that it led me to want to learn more. The more I learned, the more interesting things got.
I'm working on the "forevers," "eternals", etc. right now. This is from the Tentmaker site.
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
I was also very frustrated at the Calvinism (elect) vs Arminianism (free will) conundrum. They both make sense at one level, but then they don't. At one time Arminians were considered heretics. It is very confusing. And you have to read all these books that men write to try and understand their thinking and then you are even more confused than ever. Honestly. That is why neither of these groups can answer any questioning that goes against their doctrine. If you find a verse that contradicts them, they just say they can't explain God's mind or he works in mysterious ways. Tthey also love to talk about proper exegesis and hermeneutics, which isn't a bad thing, but it still doesn't answer many, many questions and leaves the church divided. So, somebody is wrong, obviously. Even with their PROPER exegesis and hermeneutics we still have ELECT vs FREE WILL mysteries. One group or another is still going against scripture at some level. They can't tie it together. They will always have to leave scripture out or twist words to make their doctrine work.
The confusion reminds me of that verse about "heaping teachers to themselves."
God is not the author of confusion.
(This is an interesting site on Biblical vs Unbiblical Universalism) 27. Biblical versus Unbiblical Universalism (http://www.godsplanforall.com/biblicalversusunbiblicaluniversalism - broken link)
Thank you for sharing, Herefornow. I lean more towards free will but I have to agree......what a conundrum. I'm really trying my best, as confusing as it is, to tie together all these perceived (my perceptions) inconsistencies and contradictions. I've got a lot of studying and learning to do.......it's way past due.
Thank you for sharing, Herefornow. I lean more towards free will but I have to agree......what a conundrum. I'm really trying my best, as confusing as it is, to tie together all these perceived (my perceptions) inconsistencies and contradictions. I've got a lot of studying and learning to do.......it's way past due.
Ilene,
I admire you for your willingness to face the inconsistancies head on.
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Kat meant in the mind of the universalist ------ God is a consuming fire, NOT Gods mind
Tthey also love to talk about proper exegesis and hermeneutics, which isn't a bad thing, but it still doesn't answer many, many questions and leaves the church divided. So, somebody is wrong, obviously. Even with their PROPER exegesis and hermeneutics we still have ELECT vs FREE WILL mysteries. One group or another is still going against scripture at some level. They can't tie it together. They will always have to leave scripture out or twist words to make their doctrine work. 
), but I believe that His fire will indeed devour all flesh. 
My bad......I went back and read it again and I thought she was saying the "universalist God"......not "in the mind of the universalist" (comma) God......anyway I see what you're saying now.
the missing comma makes all the difference -- there is only ONE God -- it is the humans that have different perceptions of Him.
