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Is anyone familiar with Corrie Ten Boom? The movie "The Hiding Place" was about her family hiding Jews during the Holocaust. Her story inspired me to stand up for what is right and protect the innocent even at your own peril. She lied to the Nazi's... more than once. AFTER being 'born again.' She was tortured in the Nazi concentration camp and survived to tell her story. Her story would not have been told had she not lied to save others. Yet she lied, so no heaven for her Verna?
I have and it's part of a collection of movies/books that my children grew up with and watched over and over again. It absolutely contributed to how they became...
Firstly, and for the record, I do not agree with everything that Verna teaches, but I do agree that we must live free from all sin as taught in the New Testament. Jesus shed His precious blood to gives us a new covenant based on grace. Therefore, whosoever is born of God does not commit sin.
Now, to somewhat address your questions. In most cases, people are not saved and filled with the Holy Ghost at the same time. There's a difference between salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (read more). However, Paul was a chosen vessel for God, so it happened simultaneously for him.
When we first come to the Lord, we may stumble and fall as we are growing; and if we are sincere, we cry out in repentance to the Lord and He will graciously forgive us if we are determined to forsake all sin. As we continue to grow, we are strengthened to overcome all sin; this is a must; the children of God have victory over all sin.
Romans 6:12-15 - Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid
Duly noted, thank you! My apologies for any generalizations.
If I were to tell a lie, intentionally, knowing full well beforehand, before my mouth even opened, that what I was about to say was something that is not true, this would be an act of sin.
So, no, I do not lie, intentionally...and the unintentional one's become fewer and farther in between!! Praise God!!
People can decide what they are going to say way ahead of time, or just split seconds before their mouth opens, but either way it is a decision on their part what they are going to say. The mouth doesn't just start moving with unplanned thoughts. In your view, there would have to be some sort of timeline for when something becomes a lie/sin, thus sending one to hell for intentional sin. For example:
1 week before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1 day before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 minutes before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
10 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.005 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.004 seconds before the mouth opens - safe!
So, two people in the exact same situation could have two completely different outcomes in the afterlife: heaven for the one who lied and thought about it only for 1.004 seconds before their mouth opened, and hell for the one who lied and thought about it for 1.005 seconds before the mouth opened. See? If this is a "rule" there has to be logic behind the rule for it to be fair, and God is fair, right?
"People can decide what they are going to say way ahead of time, or just split seconds before their mouth opens, but either way it is a decision on their part what they are going to say....."
"...and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
".....BUT!...Yes, there is a very, very important "but" here, that we all need to understand...please...try to understand this...we-are-still-human!<<Go figure!..just cannot seem to escape this tiny fact...we are still human...and we will, unintentionally, tell a lie in the moment...or in weakness...or just plain ignorance!...it just comes out before you had a chance to think about it, and are immediately aware (after having already said it) that, hey, that's not true, and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here...but it's a whole new ballgame...so to speak...because this is done (unintentionally) now, as a born-again, CHANGED, mature Christian...and God knows the heart...He knows it was unintentional...He knows the motives of the heart!!!
If a Christian is obeying God up to the knowledge he has and unwittingly breaks one of God's Commandments it is not an act of willful sin and he is not condemned. The atoning sacrifice of Jesus (The Blood of Christ) covers any sin done in ignorance until such time as the Holy Spirit makes the believer aware of his wrongdoing.
We can see the principle clearly illustrated in 1 John 1:7:
"But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light...the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin."
...It's so beautiful.
Look closely, the condition for cleansing is that we must walk in the light. If a believer is doing what he knows to be wrong, he is not walking in the light and therefore he is not covered by the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus only cleanses from sins done unintentionally or in ignorance of God’s law.
If the Christian has come to know that it is wrong, and continues to transgress the law, he is guilty of rebellion. If he will not put that sin away completely and forever, he is a rebel against God's Kingdom and will be condemned to death. He will not inherit eternal life. This is what John meant when he said:
"All wrongdoing is sin, but there is SIN which is not mortal." (1 John 5:17)
"....SIN is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)
All wrongdoing is transgression of the law, but any transgression done in ignorance is not mortal.
God does not consider a sin to be mortal unless there is rebellion in the heart. Without an attitude of rebellion there is no act of sin.
*******************************************
So, no, I do not lie, intentionally...and the unintentional one's become fewer and farther in between!! Praise God!!
"...and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here..."
Was this a response to what I posted?
Posted by BHFT:
People can decide what they are going to say way ahead of time, or just split seconds before their mouth opens, but either way it is a decision on their part what they are going to say. The mouth doesn't just start moving with unplanned thoughts. In your view, there would have to be some sort of timeline for when something becomes a lie/sin, thus sending one to hell for intentional sin. For example:
1 week before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1 day before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 minutes before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
10 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.005 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.004 seconds before the mouth opens - safe!
So, two people in the exact same situation could have two completely different outcomes in the afterlife: heaven for the one who lied and thought about it only for 1.004 seconds before their mouth opened, and hell for the one who lied and thought about it for 1.005 seconds before the mouth opened. See? If this is a "rule" there has to be logic behind the rule for it to be fair, and God is fair, right?
People can decide what they are going to say way ahead of time, or just split seconds before their mouth opens, but either way it is a decision on their part what they are going to say. The mouth doesn't just start moving with unplanned thoughts. In your view, there would have to be some sort of timeline for when something becomes a lie/sin, thus sending one to hell for intentional sin. For example:
1 week before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1 day before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 minutes before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
10 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.005 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.004 seconds before the mouth opens - safe!
So, two people in the exact same situation could have two completely different outcomes in the afterlife: heaven for the one who lied and thought about it only for 1.004 seconds before their mouth opened, and hell for the one who lied and thought about it for 1.005 seconds before the mouth opened. See? If this is a "rule" there has to be logic behind the rule for it to be fair, and God is fair, right?
"...and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here..."
"...and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here..."
doesn't address anything I said.
...sure it does.
First you quote me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry If I were to tell a lie, intentionally, knowing full well beforehand, before my mouth even opened, that what I was about to say was something that is not true, this would be an act of sin.
So, no, I do not lie, intentionally...and the unintentional one's become fewer and farther in between!! Praise God!!
Then you replied...
People can decide what they are going to say way ahead of time, or just split seconds before their mouth opens, but either way it is a decision on their part what they are going to say. The mouth doesn't just start moving with unplanned thoughts. In your view, there would have to be some sort of timeline for when something becomes a lie/sin, thus sending one to hell for intentional sin. For example:
1 week before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1 day before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 minutes before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
30 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
10 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.005 seconds before the mouth opens - intentional/hell
1.004 seconds before the mouth opens - safe!
So, two people in the exact same situation could have two completely different outcomes in the afterlife: heaven for the one who lied and thought about it only for 1.004 seconds before their mouth opened, and hell for the one who lied and thought about it for 1.005 seconds before the mouth opened. See? If this is a "rule" there has to be logic behind the rule for it to be fair, and God is fair, right?
Then I answered...(trying to point out what I intended to be understood concerning what transpires the moment after I've told an unintentional lie)...
First I quoted you...
Quote: Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow "People can decide what they are going to say way ahead of time, or just split seconds before their mouth opens, but either way it is a decision on their part what they are going to say....."
Then I quoted myself...again...
"...and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here..."
Quote: Originally Posted by Verna ".....BUT!...Yes, there is a very, very important "but" here, that we all need to understand...please...try to understand this...we-are-still-human!<<Go figure!..just cannot seem to escape this tiny fact...we are still human...and we will, unintentionally, tell a lie in the moment...or in weakness...or just plain ignorance!...it just comes out before you had a chance to think about it, and are immediately aware (after having already said it) that, hey, that's not true, and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here...but it's a whole new ballgame...so to speak...because this is done (unintentionally) now, as a born-again, CHANGED, mature Christian...and God knows the heart...He knows it was unintentional...He knows the motives of the heart!!!
If a Christian is obeying God up to the knowledge he has and unwittingly breaks one of God's Commandments it is not an act of willful sin and he is not condemned. The atoning sacrifice of Jesus (The Blood of Christ) covers any sin done in ignorance until such time as the Holy Spirit makes the believer aware of his wrongdoing.
We can see the principle clearly illustrated in 1 John 1:7:
"But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light...the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin."
...It's so beautiful.
Look closely, the condition for cleansing is that we must walk in the light. If a believer is doing what he knows to be wrong, he is not walking in the light and therefore he is not covered by the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus only cleanses from sins done unintentionally or in ignorance of God’s law.
If the Christian has come to know that it is wrong, and continues to transgress the law, he is guilty of rebellion. If he will not put that sin away completely and forever, he is a rebel against God's Kingdom and will be condemned to death. He will not inherit eternal life. This is what John meant when he said:
"All wrongdoing is sin, but there is SIN which is not mortal." (1 John 5:17)
"....SIN is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)
All wrongdoing is transgression of the law, but any transgression done in ignorance is not mortal.
God does not consider a sin to be mortal unless there is rebellion in the heart. Without an attitude of rebellion there is no act of sin.
*******************************************
So, no, I do not lie, intentionally...and the unintentional one's become fewer and farther in between!! Praise God!!
So, to break it down for you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow "People can decide what they are going to say way ahead of time, or just split seconds before their mouth opens, but either way it is a decision on their part what they are going to say....."
Then I quoted myself...again...
"...and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here..."
"...and then have the character...the charisma...to immediately back up and tell the truth instead...until after having experienced the embarrassment of this a few times...you decide you're not going to do that again!...still growing and learning here..."
doesn't address anything I said.
I think she means that God judges the heart so if you perceive Verna lying it is, in her heart, an unintentional lie even if premeditated....
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Was this a response to what I posted?
