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As difficult as it is to accept, that we cannot lie, about anything, no matter what the cost, it is the truth.
How do I know it is the truth? Because I realize that to trust God, to really, truly trust God, costs everything...absolutely everything...including our own lives...and possibly the lives of those we love the most.
What if I were given the option of 1. renouncing Jesus Christ as my Lord, or 2. have my head severed off if I didn't...what would be my final answer?...or...(another scenerio), 1. renouncing Jesus Christ as my Lord, or 2. watch my precious child be killed right in front of me if I didn't...what would be my final annswer?
...what would I do...........?...would I renounce Jesus Christ as my Lord?...knowing that that would save my life or the life of my child......?..........I just cry thinking about it......but I would never renounce Jesus Christ as my Lord...because my life isn't worth losing an eternity spent with Him...if it wasn't for Him, I wouldn't even have a life...I wouldn't have a child...I wouldn't be...it's ALL His...everything belongs to Him...my life...my precious child...everything is His anyway...what kind of life would it be that you saved by renouncing Jesus...?
Trust...Belief...Faith...Hope...The Love of God............Trust...Trust...Trust...
You know...when all is said and done...when the end really comes, all we will have is our faith...we'll be stripped of everything but our faith..whatever faith we have, be it weak or very deep...whatever can be shaken will be...and whatever isn't strong in faith will not stand, but will fall...hard.
...a difficult to accept, powerful reality.
Humbled by this reality that has hit me at my very core...
kat...would you lie to save your own life?...would you lie to save someone else's life?...what would you do if given the choice to renounce Jesus as your Lord and Savior...or die...or to renounce Jesus to save the life of your child?
kat...would you lie to save your own life?...would you lie to save someone else's life?...what would you do if given the choice to renounce Jesus as your Lord and Savior...or die...or to renounce Jesus to save the life of your child?
Being in a situation like that would be tough, but I have no fear. Whatever words I am given to say I will say. Perhaps I will be like Peter and deny Christ. Perhaps I will lie to save my self or others. Maybe I wouldn't. I cannot say what I would do but I can rest assured that since God is directing my steps I would do what is right in any given situation.
There is no fear in Love, Verna.
You said yourself that it is all God's... your life, your child, your steps, your path, your speech... if so why are you afraid? God makes good choices for us, doesn't he?
You know...when all is said and done...when the end really comes, all we will have is our faith...we'll be stripped of everything but our faith..whatever faith we have, be it weak or very deep...whatever can be shaken will be...and whatever isn't strong in faith will not stand, but will fall...hard.
...a difficult to accept, powerful reality.
Humbled by this reality that has hit me at my very core...
God Bless.
I agree Verna, but a very big part of this tearing down is to take the very thing we hold dearest - our worth, our value, our "righteousness".
To be truly crucified with Christ is to see all you are, and all you hoped to be taken away. He will show you that there is nothing good in you, that the best you have is filthy rags: and you will absolutely loath yourself at the sight of it. To see Him in truth is to also see yourself...
We will sin, we will fail, we will deny, we will die to hope itself - all this so that He will become our hope, our faith, our life. Without this process of dying, there can be no resurrection. (John 12:24, 1 Cor 15:36)
This is what I've been saying since I've been on this forum - we have to know the "otherness" of Christ, that He is nothing like we know. He is nothing like our best, our imaginative trophy.
You will hear two different instructions kat...one in one ear...God's...and one in the other ear...Satan's...and you will have to choose which one you will listen to...
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
...I can rest assured that since God is directing my steps I would do what is right in any given situation...
...and I rest, assuring you kat, that IF you are allowing God to TRULY direct your steps, you WILL CHOOSE to NOT lie to save either yours or your child's life.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
There is no fear in Love, Verna.
There is no fear in death either kat...when you die for your Father in heaven, in the Name of Jesus Christ...there is no greater love than that which you would lay down your life for your brother...<<this brother is, someone, who would, more than likely, be one of those standing by, who would be witnessing the testimony of your lips...would your testimony give this brother encouragement to do the same for his LORD, to stand strong, with no other fear than the fear of God (which is the beginning of wisdom), because of his love for his Father in heaven?...or would your testimony cause him to stumble in fear of the enemy more than his fear of God...?...causing him to renounce the LORD as well...because of the wrong kind of fear?
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
You said yourself that it is all God's... your life, your child, your steps, your path, your speech... if so why are you afraid? God makes good choices for us, doesn't he?
You say that God is going to make this choice for you kat...you are decieved.
You do not understand the true meaning of the verse..."there is no fear in love" kat. You see...there IS NO fear in the love of God...the love of God casteth out ALL fear kat...even the fear of death.
...there is nothing like the fear of God to make one head in the right direction.
Of course, it would be good to try and save the life but only within the parameters of God's commandments. There is always another option rather than lie. It may cost you your life but there is always an option.
The early Christians understood that concept completely. Remember - they could have saved their family's lives by merely telling a lie to the Roman authorities. Those who truly believed in God preferred to be martyred in the arena than lie. Death rather than disobedience - God will accept no less.
You will hear two different instructions kat...one in one ear...God's...and one in the other ear...Satan's...and you will have to choose which one you will listen to...
My 'Satan ear' is blocked. I've worked hard to get that block set up.
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...and I rest, assuring you kat, that IF you are allowing God to TRULY direct your steps, you WILL CHOOSE to NOT lie to save either yours or your child's life.
Tell that to all the children who lived to be adult because someone broke a commandment in saving them...
The foundation of God's commandments (at least if you believe the bible in the matter) is that we love God and love each other as ourselves. Therefore if you love someone and want to save them from death wouldn't God make a way for you to do that? He will give me correct words to say in any given situation. That is trust. I have no doubt that in any situation I can be victorious because of what he has taught me through the bible etc.
How can you tell me what God would have me to do in any given situation before the event? Are you a diviner? This is exactly the thing that the zealot religious leaders preached. Yet Jesus thought (from God) that it was appropriate to do work on the Sabbath in order for someone to be healed.
The zealots believed they were not obligated to help their fellow man on the Lords very day. If you are under the impression that God does not want you to break the commandments even to save a life then I feel bad for you and pray that God opens your eyes so you can see his true nature, his gift to us.
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There is no fear in death either kat...when you die for your Father in heaven, in the Name of Jesus Christ...there is no greater love than that which you would lay down your life for your brother...<<this brother is, someone, who would, more than likely, be one of those standing by, who would be witnessing the testimony of your lips...would your testimony give this brother encouragement to do the same for his LORD, to stand strong, with no other fear than the fear of God (which is the beginning of wisdom), because of his love for his Father in heaven?...or would your testimony cause him to stumble in fear of the enemy more than his fear of God...?...causing him to renounce the LORD as well...because of the wrong kind of fear?
But you read in 1 John that if you don't love your brother then you don't love God...CAN'T love God because if you can't love your brother who you SEE then how can you love a god that you cannot. If you don't save your child by whatever means God gives you then you cannot be showing love to God. If you have to renounce God in order to save you and your family....
Would God, according to 1 John and Jesus' example, want you to forsake your lives for the sake of a few meaningless words?? I would forgive you if had to disparage my name to save your family. Whatever we forgive on earth is forgiven in heaven...whatever we would forgive of people on earth is the measure of what is forgiven in heaven.
Do you not understand that we are told to forgive our brother 70x7?
So the question is... would you forgive someone for killing another to save the life of their child? Would you say that God would not forgive someone a necessary lie or denying him.... would you?
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You say that God is going to make this choice for you kat...you are decieved.
You do not understand the true meaning of the verse..."there is no fear in love" kat. You see...there IS NO fear in the love of God...the love of God casteth out ALL fear kat...even the fear of death.
...there is nothing like the fear of God to make one head in the right direction.
Of course, it would be good to try and save the life but only within the parameters of God's commandments. There is always another option rather than lie. It may cost you your life but there is always an option.
The early Christians understood that concept completely. Remember - they could have saved their family's lives by merely telling a lie to the Roman authorities. Those who truly believed in God preferred to be martyred in the arena than lie. Death rather than disobedience - God will accept no less.
...If you have to renounce God in order to save you and your family....
...please...finish ^ this...
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Would God want you to forsake your lives for the sake of a few meaningless words??...
...meaningless words kat?...meaningless words?
So, in other words, what you are asking is...would it be acceptable to not actually renounce Jesus in your heart - but just say you did?
No, it wouldn't.
It isn't what goes into the mouth that defileth the body...but what comes out of it. The words we speak are powerful...they are life and they are death to the soul...and renouncing Jesus as my Savior and my LORD would be death to me....and to anyone who do such a thing.
How could I say, "I renounce Jesus as my Lord!" to save myself or my child...only to continue living, knowing what I had said, and knowing my Father heard me say it...how pathetic I would feel...there is no way I could live with myself and probably end up killing myself anyway...just to end the misery I would be living with in my heart...knowing I hurt my LORD...knowing I forsooke Him to save myself or my daughter...I think of Judas...didn't he hang himself?...the shame he felt for doing what he had done.
Reality has really hit me squarely between the eyes...the faith and the trust I have in Jesus and my Father in heaven...I have realized how God has incrased this love I have for Him, and this faith and trust I have for Him...because I wouldn't have answered this way only a year ago...thank you Father...for breaking my heart for what breaks Yours...thank You for blessing me with understanding of Your truth...and the knowledge and the wisdom to live it out...Praise be to God.
God Bless...
Love,
Verna.
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Originally Posted by kat
Verna, I am sorry you feel this way about God.
kat...my relationship with my Father is wonderful.
So, in other words, what you are asking is...would it be acceptable to not actually renounce Jesus in your heart - but just say you did?
No, it wouldn't.
It isn't what goes into the mouth that defileth the body...but what comes out of it. The words we speak are powerful...they are life and they are death to the soul...and renouncing Jesus as my Savior and my LORD would be death to me....and to anyone who do such a thing.
How could I say, "I renounce Jesus as my Lord!" to save myself or my child...
You just quoted yourself as saying "I renounce Jesus as my Lord!"... oops now I've done it. That two witnesses.
Matt. 15:18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'
What about when you lie about renouncing Jesus... is that two wrongs or one? The renouncement in the first place and then the lie because it wasn't from your heart?
I think God's grace covers all sin... his grace far exceeds any sin we could even invent. A lie or a few words you don't mean aren't enough to displace the grace of God...
It's sad to see someone willing to give up their life for God but not give up their life for their child. Wouldn't you be willing to be sentenced to hell (for the lie or denouncement) rather than see your child die?
...It's sad to see someone willing to give up their life for God but not give up their life for their child.
What is sad, is that you would give up an eternal life spent with God to save your child's life.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
Wouldn't you be willing to be sentenced to hell (for the lie or denouncement) rather than see your child die?
NO.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Since the love of God is to keep His commandments if I were to disobey God's commandment - even to save a loved one - I would love that person more than God.
I rather die Him knowing how much I love Him...could you see me standing in front of Him to answer the big 100 million dollar question...?...knowing that my last words (before I began living a life void of the Holy Spirit) were, "I renounce Jesus as my Savior and Lord!"...?...I don't think I would be standing there with too much confidence...on the other hand...could you see me standing there before Him on that Day, and being asked the 100 million dollar question...?...knowing that He heard me say my very last words before my death..."I will not renounce my Savior and my King Jesus Christ!"...?...I could stand therefore with confidence before Him on that Day...knowing He knows I gave all that I had for Him...
...as a man thinketh so is he...what comes from our lips proves to God, Who is listening, what is in our hearts...what kind of faith do we show we have if we cannot even say what is in our hearts to say...?...we answer in fear of loosing our pathetic lives...renouncing Jesus Christ as our Savior and our Lord...this would only prove to Him that we love our lives more than we love Him...Oh!...I see so much strength and power and righteousness in answering with a resounding..."NO!!! I WILL NOT RENOUNCE MY FIRST LOVE!!!...JESUS CHRIST!!!...EVER!!!...DO WITH ME WHAT YOU WILL!!!"
My heart tells me I must be forthright and honest...a good representative of Who Jesus IS within me...in front of others' eyes...not causing them to stumble...you see...it isn't about me at all...it's about those around me who I would care the most about...and what their ears heard me say...and what their eyes saw me
do...
I think you may be taking this a little too far Verna. Renouncing one's faith to save themselves would be wrong, but renouncing one's faith to save another would most definitely be right.
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