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Old 09-02-2012, 06:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Tyson View Post
This helps, Mike.

Thank you.

Shalom,
Tom
You're welcome.
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I am saying that the Mosaic Law with it many regulations are not given to the Church because the Mosaic Law was given to Israel to show that man cannot keep the Law. The Law pointed out the need for a Savior.

Romans 6:14 states that we are not under the Law. 'For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.'


The Church-age believer is under another law: not the law of sin and death, but the law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus. We are under this spiritual law as believers. Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. The Mosaic Law could not free us from bondage to sin, but God accomplished deliverance from over sin through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross.


We are all sinners. Saints are simply saved sinners.
God Bless you Mike, I'm sure our Father is well Pleased

Well done , Nice work

"Ibe"
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WK4J View Post
Mike that's the scripture as it is written. It's so sad to see those who deny it and try to change it to fit what they want it to say. May God help them to see the light of the truth of His word.
Many people are so divorced from the reality of God's grace and are so mired in the muck of legalism that they are unable to free themselves from it and understand what the Scriptures actually teach. Apart from divine intervention these people will remain locked in their legalistic beliefs.
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IbeWishing View Post
God Bless you Mike, I'm sure our Father is well Pleased

Well done , Nice work

"Ibe"
Thank you.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:12 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Following is a brief description of and the purpose for The Mosaic Law, with emphasis on the Ten Commandments and particularly the sabbath.

I. The Mosaic Law.

The Mosaic Law in its entirety is set forth in the first five books of the Old Testament.

The Mosaic Law was given to and only to Israel of the Old Testament-the Old Covenant. Exodus 19:3; Leviticus 26:46; Romans 3:19;9:4.

The Gentiles were never the recipients of the Law. Deuteronomy 4:8; Romans 2:12-14.

The Church-age believer is not under the Law. Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:19.

The Mosaic Law is divided into three different areas known as Codices-sets of rules.

The first Codex is the moral code and includes the ten commandents. Exodus 20:1-17; Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Codex 1 defines morality and shows that man is a sinner and is unable to save himself and therefore in need of a Savior. Jesus Christ fulfilled this part of the law by His perfect life during His First Advent on earth.

The second Codex is the spiritual code and is a shadow Christology and Soterology. Hebrews 10:1. The Levitical Offerings, the Holy Days, the Tabernacle, the Levitical Priesthood, the Jewish believers worship are all included in Codex 2. Jesus Christ fulfilled this part of the law with His death, burial, resurrection, ascension and session at the right hand of God the Father.

The third Codex is the social code and involved laws pertaining to diet, sanitation, quarantine, land conservation, military service, crime, taxation, marriage, etc... Jesus Christ fulfilled Codex 3 by His obedience to the laws of the land.

Since Jesus Christ fulfilled the law in its entirety, the law does not carry over into the church-age. Hebrews 10:4 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.'

During the dispensation of the church, the believer is under a greater law. The law of spirituality. Romans 8:2-4; 1 Corinthians 13; Galatians 5:18, 22, 23.

Romans 8:2-4 'For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3) For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did; sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4) in order the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.'

Gal 5:18 'But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.'

DOCTRINE OF THE MOSAIC LAW

II. The Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews after they left their 400 years of captivity in Egypt and were designed to allow the Jews to establish themselves as a nation and as a free people and keep them from going back into slavery. Because the Jews did not keep the commandments, and thereby broke the Covenant that God had established with their forefathers after leaving Egypt (Jeremiah chapter 11) they ended up back in slavery in 586 B.C.

While the Mosiac Law as a whole was given only to the Jews and is not operational during the church-age, the Ten Commandments themselves have always applied to the human race in general both to believer and unbeliever, as a set of principles designed for the protection and orderly function of the human race during human history. The Ten Commandments or Decalogue summarize God's principles with regard to freedom. They are in fact a system of spirituality-morality.

The first five commandments deal with spirituality. Not as in being filled with the Holy Spirit but in the sense of man's potential relationship with God.

Although the Ten Commandments are laws that were given to the Jews as Codex one of the Mosiac Law, contained in these laws are principles by which the entire human race must live. The last five of the Ten Commandments address man's relationship to man. For instance, at no time in human history for either believer or unbeliever has murder ever been acceptable. Murder is a violation of another persons freedom and right to life. Stealing is a violation of another persons right to own property. In order for a national entity to function properly and for its citizens to pursue their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness there must be laws, standards, and principles by which a society must live. And thus, God gave the Ten Commandments to Israel to protect them. But those same principles apply to everyone of every period in history.

The Ten Commandments do not define sin as such, although certainly the prohibitions listed are sins. The sins listed in the Decalogue are such that they intrude on the freedom of others. Sin is defined in the Bible by passages such as Proverbs 6:16-35; Colossians 3:5-10 and Eph 5:1-6.

This is a very general and therefore a very incomplete description of the Ten Commandments but I hope it will give a better understanding of their purpose. I do want to touch on the forth commandment--the sabbath.

III. The Sabbath.

Exodus 20:8 'Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9) ''Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10) but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11) For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day, therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Notice in verse 10 that it mentions 'your sojourner who stays with you.' The only time that a gentle was required to keep the sabbath was when he was staying with the Jews.

The sabbath of course was a day of rest and was observed on Saturday. After six days of work, the Jews were to take a day of rest in order to orient themselves to the grace of God. They were to cease from working and to think of all that God had done for them. God's policy toward man is grace, even under the law that Israel lived under. Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross, which from the standpoint of the Jew's was still future.

But the principle of the day of rest was established in Exodus 20:11 wherein God rested on the seventh day. Not because He was tired (He wasn't), but because He had completed all that He had determined to do. As a memorial, the Jews were to also rest on the seventh day.

The first time anyone was commanded to keep the sabbath is recorded in Exodus 16:22-30.

As recorded by Moses in Genesis 2:2-3 'And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3) Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.'

The sabbath was not instituted at the time of Genesis 2:2-3. In writing this, Moses was simply telling the Jews at Sinai the meaning as to why they were to keep the sabbath. Again, the command to keep the sabbath was not given until Exodus 16:22-30. Prior to that time, there was no sabbath law which had to be kept.

Now why when the church-age begin did the church begin to worship on Sunday? Because it was the day that Jesus had been resurrected on. Sunday is not a sabbath or a holy day. But Sunday is the day the church-age began. The day of Pentecost.

The Bible authorizes gathering together on the first day of the week, Sunday, for the purpose of worship. Acts. 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2; and Colossians 2:16-17.

Acts 20:7 'And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.'

1 Cor. 16:2 'On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.'

Col. 2:16-17 'Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--17) things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.'

Now sabbatarians will say that Col. 2:16-17 is not referring to the weekly sabbath. As I wish to bring this post to a close, I will present these links to answer that.

Col.2 sabbaths or Sabbath

Col 2:14-16 clearly teaches that the sabbath was abolished and nailed to cross!


The sabbath was a shadow and a type. In Christ, the type is done away with. The reality of Christ replaces the shadow.

Entering the True Sabbath Rest

The believers rest is stated in Hebrews chapter 4. The faith-rest life.

Faith Rest Life

I've tried to present sufficent information here to be of help to those who want to learn something they may not of known about the Mosaic law, the Ten Commandments and particularly, the sabbath. I hope readers will take time to go into the links provided.
Who is it that is grafted into the Cultured Olive Tree?...
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:11 PM
 
63 posts, read 26,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555 View Post
i am saying that the mosaic law with its many regulations are not given to the church because the mosaic law was given to israel to show that man cannot keep the law. The law pointed out the need for a savior.

>>>> romans 6:14 states that we are not under the law. 'for sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.'


the church-age believer is under another law: Not the law of sin and death, but the law of the spirit of life which is in christ jesus. We are under this spiritual law as believers. rom. 8:2 for the law of the spirit of life in christ jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. the mosaic law could not free us from bondage to sin, but god accomplished deliverance over sin through the death of jesus christ on the cross.


We are all sinners. Saints are simply saved sinners.
Would it be wrong to say saints are holy and righteous?



{ romans 6:14 states that we are not under the law. 'for sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.' }


As per my original post below, Maybe Romans 6:14 means:
The Holy, Righteous Saint is not under the condemnation/judgement of the Law,
because criminal behavior will not dominate those delivered from the bondage of sin,
for we are not under the weakness of a stop sign, but under the power of a God changed heart/attitude.

If sin is not your master - you do not break the law.
If sin is your master - then you do break the law.


Quote:
originally posted by tom tyson
perhaps christ is the 'end' in the following sense:

1ti 1:5 now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

The law ends when you stop breaking it?

Rom 13:8 owe no man any thing, but to love one another: For he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
rom 13:9 for this, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 love worketh no ill to his neighbour: Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

the law ends when you walk in the spirit and not in the sinful flesh? Please explain the following:

1ti 1:8 but we know that the law is {present tense, not done away} good, if a man use it lawfully;
1ti 1:9 knowing this, that the law is {again, present tense} not made for a righteous man, but is for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1ti 1:10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

are you saying (a) there is no law and (b) it does not apply to those in 1 tim. 1:9-10. Please define 'lawless,' and 'sinners.'

shalom,
tom
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:30 PM
 
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Since I just posted this concerning the Sabbath on another thread, I decided to post it here as well with the addition of Matthew 11:28, for those of you who are sabbatarians. This is an addendum to what I said about the Sabbath in the original post of this thread.


The sabbath, the Church Age believer's sabbath is not a day of rest (Saturday) as it was with Israel, but is the moment by moment faith-rest spoken of in Hebrews 3:7-11 and Hebrews 4:1-11.

Hebrews 4:9 says, So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Hebrews 4:7 says that is a fixed day. 'TODAY' is that fixed day. In other words, EVERY day, every moment, is to be a Sabbath rest. 'He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

The believer's moment by moment Sabbath rest is entered into by mixing the promises of God, the Word of God with your faith. Hebrews 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

The believer is advised to fear not entering into the moment by moment Sabbath rest. Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

Matthew 11:28 speaks of coming to Jesus Christ for rest. Both temporal and eternal rest are in view here.

Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.


Therefore, FORGET about trying to keep the Saturday Sabbath thinking that God requires it of you. He does not. That was for Israel in a previous dispensation. The Church Age believer has a moment by moment Sabbath rest which can be entered into by believing the Word of God and mixing it with your faith. The moment by moment Sabbath rest is far superior in every way.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:56 PM
 
12,501 posts, read 6,296,440 times
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Originally Posted by Tom Tyson View Post
Perhaps Christ is the 'end' in the following sense:

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

The law ends when you stop breaking it?

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The law ends when you walk in the Spirit and not in the sinful flesh? Please explain the following:

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is {present tense, not done away} good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is {Again, present tense} not made for a righteous man, but is for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
It's been a while sense I've been back on this thread. Concerning 1 Tim 1:8-10, after warning about those who wanted to be teachers of the Law but did not understand the Law [v7], Paul went on to say that the Law was good if it wasn't used inappropriately for legalistic purposes [v8]. The Law was intended to show that man is a sinner and in need of salvation. But the Law is not for those who have recognized their sin and received Jesus Christ as Savior [v 9-10]. Paul then went on in [v 9-10] to give some examples of sin.


Quote:
Are you saying (A) there is no law and (B) it does not apply to those in 1 Tim. 1:9-10. Please define 'lawless,' and 'sinners.'

Shalom,
Tom
A comparison of Romans 10:4 with Gal. 3:19-25 shows what Paul meant when he said that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

What Romans 10:4 means - Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes.', is explained by Gal. 3:19-25.

Gal. 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20] Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21] Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22] But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23] But before faith came, we (Israel) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed (reference to the coming of Jesus Christ). 24] Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes (Rom. 10:4) means that with the coming of Christ and the change in dispensations, the believer is not under a tutor - not under the law (Gal. 3:25).

The Mosaic law was given to Israel after the exodus from Egypt. Its purpose was to act as a strict disciplinarian which provided moral training and protection from the evil heaven practices of the peoples which surrounded them. But with the coming of Christ, the believer is delivered from the protective custody of the law.

The Church Age believer is in Christ and is not under the law.

You asked for a definition of sinners. We are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. Sin is a violation of God's perfect standards. But Jesus Christ redeemed us from the slave market of sin.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:13 PM
 
12,501 posts, read 6,296,440 times
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Originally Posted by Tom Tyson View Post
Would it be wrong to say saints are holy and righteous?



{ romans 6:14 states that we are not under the law. 'for sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.' }


As per my original post below, Maybe Romans 6:14 means:
The Holy, Righteous Saint is not under the condemnation/judgement of the Law,
because criminal behavior will not dominate those delivered from the bondage of sin,
for we are not under the weakness of a stop sign, but under the power of a God changed heart/attitude.

If sin is not your master - you do not break the law.
If sin is your master - then you do break the law.
Concerning whether saints are holy and righteous, Every believer is a saint. And by definition a saint is someone who has been sanctified; set apart for God's use. When a person believes on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, God imputes His very own righteousness to that person and then pronounces him justified. In a salvific sense then, God sees His own righteousness in the believer.


As for whether you break the law if sin is your master, I will refer you back to my previous post to you which I just got through replying to before this post. As a believer in Christ we simply are not under the Law.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:08 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
While the Mosiac Law as a whole was given only to the Jews and is not operational during the church-age, the Ten Commandments themselves have always applied to the human race in general both to believer and unbeliever, as a set of principles designed for the protection and orderly function of the human race during human history. The Ten Commandments or Decalogue summarize God's principles with regard to freedom. They are in fact a system of spirituality-morality.
You are thinking of the Noahide Law here, Mike...The Ten are divided into Man's obligation to HaShem and Man's obligation to each other...
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