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Old 04-09-2010, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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My husband and I have been discussing Universal Reconciliation. From what I have studied, UR is the most Biblically backed up doctrine between Calvinism, Arminianism, and UR. But, my husband asked what the devil's purpose was here. (God created the destroyer to destroy) Why all the drama and testing going on if all are restored. I know that UR states that it basically is to show the backdrop of evil against good. If we didn't know what evil is, how would we know what good is. I guess that is the argument.

(I haven't gotten too much into UR along those lines. More or less studying the "hells" and the "eons.")

I know there is a verse in Revelation that says the former things will not be remembered. So how does that fit into the arguement about Evil vs Good if we are supposed to be learning. All our learning would be forgotten. Just wondering.......
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Old 04-09-2010, 10:26 PM
 
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Look into joung and his student edinger ... Specifically ego and archetype.
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Old 04-09-2010, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Look into joung and his student edinger ... Specifically ego and archetype.

Carl Jung? Yes, I believe my dad studied him thoroughly. The ego and archetype have been discussed with me briefly. (my dad had a stroke a few years ago and I have not talked with him since)

I didn't really want to get into Jung too much (free association tests, ESP, precognition, causal astrological conjunction). My dad was very interested in these things, but I believed it to be dangerous territory. I know my dad was probably trying to get me to make a connection between Jung and Reconciliation, but the stroke cut us off. We got into many arguments (My dad went off the deep end with this stuff. Sigh.)

Anyway, I don't want to fight anybody here. Just wondering if somebody could help me see the big picture. Why throw evil into the mix if the good is going to get crushed. (while here on this planet, at least) (I hope we are not getting into Matrix-type thinking)
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,866,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Carl Jung? Yes, I believe my dad studied him thoroughly. The ego and archetype have been discussed with me briefly. (my dad had a stroke a few years ago and I have not talked with him since)

I didn't really want to get into Jung too much (free association tests, ESP, precognition, causal astrological conjunction). My dad was very interested in these things, but I believed it to be dangerous territory. I know my dad was probably trying to get me to make a connection between Jung and Reconciliation, but the stroke cut us off. We got into many arguments (My dad went off the deep end with this stuff. Sigh.)

Anyway, I don't want to fight anybody here. Just wondering if somebody could help me see the big picture. Why throw evil into the mix if the good is going to get crushed. (while here on this planet, at least) (I hope we are not getting into Matrix-type thinking)
I simply believe that God is both Good and Evil which makes a perfect whole which is neither good nor evil... if that makes sense.

I also believe that in order to have 'free will,' we must have a choice between Good and Evil. If we make the wrong choice we see the consequences so we can make the right choice next time. It is all for correction.

IMO anyway
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:14 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,797,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Carl Jung? Yes, I believe my dad studied him thoroughly. The ego and archetype have been discussed with me briefly. (my dad had a stroke a few years ago and I have not talked with him since)

I didn't really want to get into Jung too much (free association tests, ESP, precognition, causal astrological conjunction). My dad was very interested in these things, but I believed it to be dangerous territory. I know my dad was probably trying to get me to make a connection between Jung and Reconciliation, but the stroke cut us off. We got into many arguments (My dad went off the deep end with this stuff. Sigh.)

Anyway, I don't want to fight anybody here. Just wondering if somebody could help me see the big picture. Why throw evil into the mix if the good is going to get crushed. (while here on this planet, at least) (I hope we are not getting into Matrix-type thinking)
Yeah ... Sorry ... Working with an iPod ... Jung. I understand taboo
... I was raised baptist. The poi g I was referring to was the problem of good ANC evil. That is why Iade reference to "ego and archetype".
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:59 PM
 
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Hi herefornow,

This is one of the main things that I have pondered for years.
I could write on and on and on about this topic. But I will spare you.

In a nutshell:

I see us as all being here together learning the destructive nature of non-love. And the powerful force of love. It MUST be felt in MAJOR, INTENSE ways because it is the most INTENSE lesson that WE as human beings MUST learn. I see a picture of all lives lived, all people as being PART of this picture that is being CREATED. That we will ALL one day FINALLY SEE the WHOLE picture. The WHOLE picture of mankind's HISTORY through this journey of the knowledge of LOVE (good) and NON-LOVE (evil.)

This life that we must ALL walk through is creating something that will LAST FOREVER. FOREVER. The understanding of the knowledge of GOOD and evil. (LOVE versus NON-LOVE) So we NEVER, EVER, EVER have to go through one OUNCE of suffering EVER AGAIN. And so that we can live the way God intended. With HIM forever. With our glorious Creator. And with each other as His children.

We ARE suffering through childbirth. We haven't been born into our TRUE selves yet. As a whole. All creation, (All CREATION!!) is suffering in birth pangs, waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. (meaning all of CREATION is waiting during this journey through mankind's understanding of the destructiveness of non-love and how it affects ALL of our neighbors,(remember we are all family )and the POWER and redemptive power of LOVE.

You asked about the verse about things not coming to mind... I prayed and pondered and struggled through that verse myself, and for me, I see it as lessons learned. Once you have gotten to the OTHER SIDE of something, some mountain that you must climb, when you are on the other side, you don't NEED TO think of the struggle, it doesn't NEED TO come to mind, anymore. Because you WALKED IT! You being on the other side of a mountain, you don't need to dwell on the struggle OVER the mountain. The being on the other side of it is what matters to you NOW. It's a beautiful thing. That verse used to confuse me and actually kind of freaked me out a bit to be honest! But now, I see that verse as just so full of hope and wonder and just... exhiliration!

No, we will NOT FORGET who we ARE and we will not forget our journey! But simply, the lessons that we learn (individually and more importantly as a WHOLE) have CREATED something for us, an inner knowledge, a knowing, LOVE, a CLEAR view of our CREATOR and THAT is what comes to mind. Once we see through the glass clearly, we won't think about when we only saw through the glass darkly! BUT.. we will always be aware that we DID at one time see through the glass darkly. To me, that is just....exciting.

I love that VERSE! Because it speaks to me of the COMPLETION of a journey that mankind has had to take.

Here is Isaiah 65:17: The new living translation kind of made me laugh because it's basically exactly what I'm talking about:
Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth,and no one will even think about the old ones anymore.

The suffering will not COMPARE to the glory to be revealed. But before it is revealed, we MUST walk over this mountain of the knowledge of good and evil (love and non-love.)

Every life lived will be a GLORIOUS testimony. As to the POWER of God. THE POWER of LOVE. All people who were enemies here on earth (this TEMPORARY PLANE) will embrace. I see this picture unfolding in all of it's glorious splendor. Human beings who because of greed were in some ways responsible for my mother's death, for instance, I see my mother and those people embracing. Because they will have come to the understanding of the type of destruction comes about when we DO NOT love our neighbor.

LOVE CONQUERS ALL.
We MUST struggle over this mountain. ALL of us.
Each life lived will have an affect on the WHOLE.
God is weaving a tapestry, every life is a thread.
And a glorious testimony.
No matter how far WE as humans take the darkness (non-love), God will turn it around for good. It is all so that WE MAY live with our Creator forever and non-love will NEVER rear it's ugly head.
Because we will have learned. ALL of us.
We are a family. ALL of us. Again, we are all PART of this. Every human being is part of the picture of the POWER of LOVE.
Everything in creation, struggling through this is weaving itself INTO the picture that will LAST forever.
The picture God is creating through us, of the POWER of LOVE.
When it has come to completion... then: Isaiah 65:25 "...the lion will feed with the lamb...They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,"


Let me know if anything I said is confusing.

I do NOT believe that God is evil.
AT ALL.
I believe that God IS LOVE.
NON-LOVE is what exists when we TURN AWAY from HIM.
HE is the source of LOVE.
NO evil at all. at ALL. in my eyes.

peace.
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,173,341 times
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Thanks for the responses. (beautiful as usual, sparrow) I've GOT to get to bed, but I will ponder these things and get back to you guys tomorrow.

(some deep thinking going on here---my brain hurts)
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:12 AM
 
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oh yeah, um.. I forgot to say "sorry it was so long!"
I said "in a nutshell"...

hahahahahahhhahhahahaha.
yeah right.


Sweet dreams, herefornow!
peace,
sparrow
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:30 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,474,126 times
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Hi Herefornow,

Here is my understanding...

Christ, by enduring evil, and laying down his life for His enemies, by overcoming evil with God, was showing us God's glory. In the absence of evil, how could God have shown us His glory?

Just prior to being betrayed by Judas, Jesus prayed that the diciples would be with him (at His crucifixion) to see His glory, to see him lay down His life for mankind.
  • John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.
  • John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world
  • John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. 2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples. 3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons
  • John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
All the parts in red below require evil to exist.
  • Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
  • 1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 1 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
The glory of the God is not found in loving only those who love us. It is in loving our enemies, those who hate us, those who curse us.
  • Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
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Old 04-10-2010, 01:35 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
19,524 posts, read 18,766,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
But, my husband asked what the devil's purpose was here.
Not everyone who believes in a universal reconciliation believes that everyone who ever lived is going to end up being rewarded in Heaven equally. Jesus Christ said that He was going "reward every man according to his works." Where there has been greater faithfulness, there will be a greater reward.

If we didn't know what evil is, how would we know what good is. I guess that is the argument.[/quote]Essentially, that is the case. It would pretty much be impossible to be good if there was no alternative.
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